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The fallacy of entitlement in an open sandbox

Paddy Fitzpatrick
Lol, sounds like an intentional design flaw to me then. Its one thing to say suck it up and git gud when your game is working well, but its another thing to atreibute a bad game design to your player base. So here's to upcoming fixing of design flaws when newcirp gets rolling. Cheers!

Now on the rest of the stuff, from what ive seen since ive been here escalations are pretty valuable and with better loot have only got more valuable. With some groups saying "this hex is ours now get off my lawn" and others saying "no it aint, i dont see your name on it", youre gonna get a clash of ideologies and just straight up competition. Stuff may work out through diplomacy or we may take it out back and fight.

See, thats healthy, oeople are gonna get get tense and its frustrsting as hell but co op or competition is normal and like i said before there is no softening up that reality. This aint ultra hardcore gank fest here where everyone can and will be slaughtered on sight and lose everything on death and then grt killed repeatedly while naked. This aint that extreme as far as open pvp games go
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
So, take a look at the escalations around now, that is how many places that there CAN BE escalations. Look at how few players there really are active and aggressive. Think about how empty of players the world seems when you are running through it.

Now imagine what 10 times as many active players will be like (for escalation events or even just normal) when that is still not enough to warrant enlarging this map.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Midnight
Edam
For example T3 gathering is something of a sore point for many. More than a few people have taken dedicated gathers to T3 only to find that the only T3 of that type within 20 hexes is locked up by a cartel trying to manipulate the market and gain a monopoly (Ann Rand capitalsim at its best smile ). I know at least one person considering unsubbing or selling a T3 gatherer account as it is more or less unusable.

It makes me return to wondering… how many people will play a game where being bossed around is the norm? Eve is a full featured game and a financial success, but Eve still is a niche game as far as their population. PFO has the advantage of being swords and sorcery, so maybe, just maybe, they can get a million subscribers *if* they eventually do as good a job as CCP did with Eve. A million would still be small potatoes in the industry, but probably a success… ESPECIALLY if players feel as much of a stake in the game as the EE crowd, because that could cause retention for years, rather than players migrating to the next big MMO whenever that is released.

Eve doesn't lose subscribers when a new MMO is released. Eve players feel vested, even if they don't have time to play (though having TRUE passive xp without worries about achievement grinding makes it more attractive to stay subscribed, even if you plan to be busy elsewhere for a while).
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Bringslite
So, take a look at the escalations around now, that is how many places that there CAN BE escalations. Look at how few players there really are active and aggressive. Think about how empty of players the world seems when you are running through it.

Now imagine what 10 times as many active players will be like (for escalation events or even just normal) when that is still not enough to warrant enlarging this map.

Then throw in how attractive PvP becomes to a blob of aggressors when unthreaded EQUIPPED gear falls. Not only will the bigger group think they can own the escalation, but they'll also think they can own the smaller group's equipment.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
@ Midnight

You have used this phrase or similar, several times recently "how many people will play a game where being bossed around is the norm?"
Could you expand on that so that what you mean is crystal clear? I'm having trouble seeing how the basics of character interaction in this sandbox will be much different than any other sandbox.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Quijenoth Starkiller
It happened, and all the reasons why it happened above are true. Incomplete game, map size, player population size, etc,

But lets look on the bright side, the player chose to sell his account and it sold. He could have simply walked away and ended his sub costing GW more revenue.

So lets not dredge up another thread about these things! I'm tired of reading them and I'm sure perspective investors and future players are too.
Quijenoth Starkiller Viceroy of Callambea
Company Leader of Beyond the Grave - www.beyond-pfo.com
Crafting Planner
Midnight
Bringslite
@ Midnight

You have used this phrase or similar, several times recently "how many people will play a game where being bossed around is the norm?"
Could you expand on that so that what you mean is crystal clear? I'm having trouble seeing how the basics of character interaction in this sandbox will be much different than any other sandbox.

I think I was clear that people get bossed around in Eve, too, and thus Eve is a niche game. Though in Eve there are often 10,000 folks (a third of the online population) in high sec that can accomplish a lot and it can be quite impractical to coerce most of them.

So far the average MMO player hasn't faced what a player in PFO faces. While I'm not complaining, as a casual player I can't possibly keep track of every published territory claim and the various rules of each settlement and coalition. (Heck, my entire alliance, including many non-casual players, once thought it had a peace treaty with the EBA, only to be told later, by Phaeros, that we misunderstood how the EBA worked, LOL). Now throw in the idea that the average MMO player hasn't even developed the willingness to abide by having many players tell her where she can and can't play and what she can and can't do in various places (even if she has the time to learn and remember it all), and I worry about how many people will sign up for that, and how many people will STAY for that. I'm not saying any of that is different from MMO sandboxes… in fact MMO sandboxes themselves are a niche, and that aspect might be WHY.

However, GW has purposely tried to make settlement life have power advantages over being an independent, so that top tier play will require taking a knee and submitting to a settlement's rules. This has put most players in the position where they are being bossed around by friend and foe alike. What *is* different, from other MMO sandboxes I've seen, is PFO players start feeling they need to do this by their second month, whereas in Eve it can be years before a player feels forced out of high-sec.


I'm not saying I don't like the stuff I described above (though I wouldn't want it in every game I play); I look at it as an interesting experiment. But I have real concerns that there are a limited number of people who will pay to be bossed around in a game, and so far this game offers far less refuge from coercion by other players than even Eve-Online. We just don't notice it much, yet, because of the low rewards of combat victory (pre-threading), the low population, and the population's over-representation of gentle TableTop players who actually have had to learn how to bully. smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
Thanks for taking the time to explain what you mean. My opinion is that you either have a strange and incorrect notion of what goes on within settlements in this game or that you are maybe exaggerating a tiny pile of requirements into a mountain of demands for submission and obedience.

Most all of us require a few things from our members. They are simple things like do not kill other players without cause or do not grief in general chat. Not much more and they are usually detailed while trying to get that player to join a company.

The new players that I have dealt with seem to be alright with the mechanics forced on them by the game design. I can't recall any leaving because they had to join a settlement or they could not progress rank wise. There may be some that I do not know about, of course. I have to say that most new people are intrigued by these design concepts. It is a new concept having player groups required to build structures so that training can be done close to home. Those that try it and leave seem to do so over different issues, again in my experience here.

Edit: So yeah, this is pretty much a sandbox. Yeah it is a bit different than most with the training and support thing. It is a niche concept and was envisioned as such, or so they said at the start. There will be difficulty growing it to proportions large enough to be viable without more investment of time and money. I have my doubts that the design is the cause of the negative feedback. I think that it is the incomplete realization of the design that is/was the turn off.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Midnight
As Caldeathe has alluded to, a big problem with settlements is the inability to get your stuff out if you run afoul of leadership.

Remember that people can be booted over lies, innuendo, and misunderstandings, too. I've seen all of that in Eve, but in Eve you can at least put your goods on the market before you evac (even if the station owner dislikes you). In PFO it *seems* like if you lose access to your personal/company vaults in the settlement's bank you won't be able to move or sell your stuff. Just wave bye bye to 17 months of gathered/refined/manufactured goods.

One can *hope* that settlement leaders are reasonable, but players can't depend on it, especially since players always think *they* are reasonable, and thus a leader who boots them is the unreasonable one. There could be a lot of costly lessons learned in this game. smile

I don't imagine that a lot of tyranny currently happens in settlements.

I do imagine that as the population grows, and as settlements burn we could get in a situation where one single leader holds immense sway on the game and can be as tyrranical as they please and be difficult to escape. Here's hoping that is *my* leader. smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
That sounds like something that the Devs need to fix. A disgruntled Settlement Leader can kick a whole company out very easily and yeah, everything in Company and Company Secure becomes inaccessible. A Sett Leader can't kick any individual player out who is not a member of the Parent or Boss or Founding Company. He could threaten that player's company leader, I suppose…

You have to have "kick" controls in a game with "guilds" or organized groups. Games without them are probably the real nightmare and the worse design.

It would not be a bad idea to have all company inventory revert to an accessible place when a company gets kicked. That comes with a lot of caveats about teleportation and stuff, but those things could be worked out. At the single player level, don't put stuff you feel is YOURS in the vaults that you won't have access to if you are kicked.

Just like anything else, any Settlement that does things like that too casually will get a BAD rep and hopefully see their numbers decline. It is a bit of a stretch to assume that anything so nasty that could be done, will be done. Especially if it is terrible and social suicide.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
 
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