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Territory claims are casual unfriendly, even to veteran players.

Midnight
We need to find a way to standardize territory claims and to make them easily understandable.

I'm a veteran player, so I'm unlikely to get a pass like some newbie, so please believe me when I tell you that one of the reasons I don't log in as often, or for as long as I used to is not knowing who I might piss off, or how.

I shouldn't have to be a freaking scholar to avoid conflict.

This isn't in crowdforging, because it will likely take another year before game mechanics handle this, and knowing this playerbase, you'll thwart the game mechanics, anyway. If you want to crowdforge game mechanics on territoriality, start a new thread in crowdforging.

This is more of a plea to the people making claims to make this easy on casual players who would consider respecting your claims if it didn't require being both a scholar and a lawyer.

I'll also add that the new trend of claiming escalations in the forums is sort of goofy because in many games, players (including me in most of the games I play) don't read the forums. The reason I read them in PFO is because the forums make an empty game seem less empty. It probably works in PFO, now, because everyone does read forums, but there will come a day when people prefer to play the game to reading the forums.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Thod-Theodum
Midnight
I hope you are aware of the irony that most claims are being done for casual players (by their settlements) and that the latest rage quit was because such a claim wasn't upheld.
It doesn't mean I disagree that we need better ways to handle this. But this will be a general problem - how do we deal with limited resources in a sandbox that is populated by both - hard core grinders and casual players. I guess this is where settlements and settlement leadership as well as game mechanics need to work with each other.
Leadership in settlements needs to ensure casuals get their share - mechanics need to ensure they are able to keep that share for their own people. At the moment only the first seems to happen - leaders try to ring fence resources for their own members which includes (hopefully) casuals.
How to deal with claims mechanically? Well - you might have noticed me selling the Spire. In absence of Golgothan leadership in the game this seemed the only way to ensure my own interests are ensured. The irony is that the monster hex on ZKM might become the last unclaimed one.
Thod/Theodum are the OOC/IC leaders of the Emerald Lodge - a neutral settlement in the center of the mal that tries to the first to explore the Emerald Spire - should that part of the game ever become available. We have a strong in game and out of game relationship with the Pathfinder Society.
We welcome both hard core players as well as casual players with or without tabletop experience. We have a strong group in Europe and are slowly expanding into the US. We are predominately PvE as our neutral political stance means that we tend to use PvP only in self-defence. We are not anti-PVP - but expect limited PvP opportunity with us.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
It is more like how do we handle a game that apparently is about controlling territory when the mechanics for real territory control dont seem to exist? There is also no way to win or lose a war if people wanna come to blows over it so its basically a catch 22.

Now look, I am againat this whole territory by fiat thing too but i and others have been trying to come up with alternatives. This escalation thing at least gained some traction but when it was suggested to base territory claims on holdings (in other words, according to the ACTUAL mechanics as they are now), that kinda got shot down. So options right now are territory by fiat, no territory at all, or this sort of in between thing with escalations. Nothing else has caught on.

Plus, with no way to win or lose wars, seems the only thing that results is more ragequits. Im beginning to worry that the only way to truly win a war is grief till your opponent leaves the game or something.

So yeah this current system may be out of whack, but if any of yall got any better ideas then by all means toss em out. But then ya of course better make sure everyone else accepts your idea, cause if ya dont got a big enough group to back you up if someone else challenges or you dont offer any solutions then it will be a waste of time.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
@ Midnight

There are at least 3 BASIC belief systems that I can see about "Territorial Claims". All are quite different and all have some variations amongst them. None of the current groups that "claim" territory kill on sight(that I am aware of) without a healthy dose of warnings. That wasn't always the case with all areas BEFORE there were even more than a single public claim. In fact only one or a few areas were KOS and they were NOT publicized that this was the situation there. It was experience and word on the street, if my memory serves me correctly.

Before and NOW, this is all sandbox stuff. Players using sand in ways that are allowed by the game creators. It is on the players to recognize or not to recognize. We, so far, all seem perfectly willing to educate unknowing folks with warnings and explanations.

I will go along and say that having a single reference-able map and info access-able easily would be a good thing.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
Thod hits the nail on the head, it's really a generally good thing as it restricts the behavior of the most active player groups from dominating the map. The very root of the recent conflict was that a group of us was grabbing every worthwhile escalation we could. Casuals could never compete with us to do the same.

As to the general issues with knowing about claims, yea that can be a problem. Some of it will be alleviated with mechanics in the long run, but some of it will probably not (like escalation claims, I would be surprised if they were every somehow 'claimable' by any mechanic). But this game is a sandbox and is community and politics based, someone in your group should be paying attention to this aspect of the game and simplifying the info for the more casual crowd. If that is too hard for someone to deal with then this is probably a poor game choice for them. If their were bigger 'safe' safe ones like Hi-Sec in EVE it might be less of a problem. Factions may throw a big wrench into some of this.

On the flip side folks making such claims need to tolerate clear accidents and new player mistakes. But restricting ourselves to facilitate casuals is just as 'bad' as us blatantly restricting casuals.
Midnight
I should probably be clear that it is the NUMBER AND VARIETY of territory claims, rather than the fact that people make claims, that is unfriendly to casuals. Add to that the documentation of claims and policies are scattered in different places, even if one felt scholarly enough to research it.

As was pointed out, claiming territory serves the casuals in settlements (which is currently like ALL OF THEM).

I wonder if the warnings will work well, over the long run. There is already a trend of skepticism at the legitimacy of warnings, and the authority of those issuing warnings, which has occasionally been well-founded.

It will be easy for a player who is enjoying what they are doing to be skeptical of someone who wants to waltz in and have their fun for them and tell them to go elsewhere.

However, as I hang out with people again, I'll probably be more of a follower than a leader, so I'll just blame whoever led me there. smile Seriously, though, for all the trouble my mates drag me into, it is very rare that I have been dragged into it without fair warning that trouble lay ahead.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Edam
The underlying motivation to many of the claims which restrict gathering is to set up a cartel to control prices of rare items (viz a viz, the De Beers diamond cartel or OPEC oil cartel in the real world). Welcome to an experiment in Ayn Rand capitalism smile
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Edam
The underlying motivation to many of the claims which restrict gathering is to set up a cartel to control prices of rare items (viz a viz, the De Beers diamond cartel or OPEC oil cartel in the real world). Welcome to an experiment in Ayn Rand capitalism smile

Ya know, just as i was starting to warm up to this whole territory thing, when you put it this way it actually is quite horrifying to think about lol.

I hate Ayn Rand almost as much as I hate dirty commies smile
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Seraph
Really though, territory claims can be summarized pretty easily for casual players and newcomers:

"Settlements are controlled by groups of players, and their resources come from their hexes, especially escalations and monster hexes. When you take resources from someone else, it's stealing unless you have permission. If you're not sure where you're allowed to go, ask someone or just farm escalations and resources close to home."

Really these claims and territories are just a declaration of where groups stand on poaching, and justification for using force against violators, which is all very reasonable.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Midnight
It's all very reasonable… to people who will pay $15 a month to be confined to a small area. smile

And to people who have expansive claims, of course.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
 
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