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Territory claims are casual unfriendly, even to veteran players.

Bringslite
Gross
ZKM being dangerous just made it much more satisfying for a T1 miner to sneak in and harvest copper! True adrenaline when something moved on mini map.
Agree 100% smile
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Midnight
Bringslite
@ Midnight

Do you feel it is better to have posted information about what to expect and where to expect it(even if not in a completely obvious place) than it is to not have such information posted anywhere?

Did you feel the same way that you feel now when Zombie Kitten Mountain was death for anyone other than EoX and those that they allowed to play there without threat of KOS?

Oh, it is better that it is somewhere that it can be located for people willing to become territorial claim scholars. But I just wish people would make it simpler to know what's what by somehow having a standard approach. It seems the only thing this community could reach consensus on was on thwarting the devs' intent at conflict with the WoT core 6 truce.

I mean, the people that got killed on ZKM didn't create political drama. Is the worst that can happen EVERYWHERE under EVERYONE'S territorial claims is that someone kills my character once? Because I'm more concerned with being put on KOS lists, and setting off unwanted wars. At times, people in this game have shown a propensity to penalize each other forever and/or everywhere.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Paddy Fitzpatrick
@Midnight

So what idea do you have to standardize all this exactly?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Decius
Midnight
Bringslite
@ Midnight

Do you feel it is better to have posted information about what to expect and where to expect it(even if not in a completely obvious place) than it is to not have such information posted anywhere?

Did you feel the same way that you feel now when Zombie Kitten Mountain was death for anyone other than EoX and those that they allowed to play there without threat of KOS?

Oh, it is better that it is somewhere that it can be located for people willing to become territorial claim scholars. But I just wish people would make it simpler to know what's what by somehow having a standard approach. It seems the only thing this community could reach consensus on was on thwarting the devs' intent at conflict with the WoT core 6 truce.

I mean, the people that got killed on ZKM didn't create political drama. Is the worst that can happen EVERYWHERE under EVERYONE'S territorial claims is that someone kills my character once? Because I'm more concerned with being put on KOS lists, and setting off unwanted wars. At times, people in this game have shown a propensity to penalize each other forever and/or everywhere.
The worst that can happen is that a company linked to a settlement loses a holding, dropping the training level by one, forcing the settlement to batphone the alliance, who then has to escalate a cold war to a hot war over the perceived slight, leaving them permanently unable to ever acknowledge the facts, even to their own members. And oddly enough, that can happen over poaching an escalation and placing a smallholding.
Midnight
Paddy Fitzpatrick
@Midnight

So what idea do you have to standardize all this exactly?

Me?

So far my only claim has been that the coal hex north of "Iron Gauntlet" was all mine IF I WAS PRESENT. Smart people went to make a sandwich until my bag filled, rather than remaining as mobile nodes for me to harvest large quantities of coal at once from.

I gave up even that bit of territoriality back on February 25, 2015 when people I respect suggested the community wasn't yet able to handle "banditry".

I've also killed folks on ZKM because… orders.

I don't know that I'm the appropriate keynote speaker for the territoriality convention. smile I frankly don't even know all the various concerns that entities have anymore, since I became so casual. But in trying to get back into playing again, I've discovered this problem. I imagine it is one that new players as well as returning folks might share, unless they are completely content to being cordoned to a small area (or they are just foolhardy enough to not worry about repercussions). The simple truth is that the people who want to claim territory have a vested interest in standardizing claims. If new players, returning players, and casual players can't figure out all your rules the natural behavior is going to be to ignore them. Players are lazy.

I certainly understand that if I ever want to be important in this game I might have to knuckle down and become a territorial claims scholar. I just really don't think the average MMO player is quite that dedicated, and frankly even *I* don't want to have to become that dedicated, since it is just more time AWAY from playing computer games.

I liked the fact that you tried to initiate a discussion on standards, but I got the impression your idea got brushed aside. Consider my view another pro-standard view, without providing a proposed standard to shoot down. smile

As a player, I don't need territoriality. I did a bit of it because it felt like the way to roleplay lawful evil, and because it seemed like how the devs intended things to eventually be.

I'm just warning the people who do have a desire for territoriality that they would be better served by standardizing things and making it easier to comprehend for people whose first inclination is to comply. The more work it is for someone to understand, the less inclined people are to comply.


Easy comprehension = compliance. Obtuseness = anarchy.

I'm actually ok with either. smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Edam
In perspective.

Prior to last patch- territorial "hotspots" were Ustalav monster hexes and those T3 monster hexes with rare/scarce T3 resources. Escalations were "front loaded" with little motivation to kill the bosses and no great motivation to complete escalations at all other than to make room for an Ustie escalation to spawn which was then farmed.

Post patch - the escalations are back loaded with most of the value in the boss. As a result people who have vested time into dropping an escalation feel they have a "claim" to the boss. Similarly local groups who previously did not really care about escalations unless it was Usties now see value in claiming all escalations in that hex.

Pragmatically though these claims are not really that enforceable outside the "if your caught this will create consequences for your group/company/settlement" threat due to the impossibility of doing much more than planting a stealthed video streaming guard at server up each day in order to identify culprits after the fact .

Keeping an effective PvP deterrent on call 24/7 is simply not going to happen at this stage of the game. In EVE the major coalitions have PvP deterrent forces that are "bat-phoned" by real life SMS or messenger to log in at any time of day when threats are spotted but this game is not near at that point.
Bringslite
It hasn't happened since that last patch yet, but I have to say that putting in the work and losing the escalation after simply having to face reality that it isn't doable in a particular session would be aggravating. Knocking one of these escalations down is more than a well geared party of 6 and the help of a cpl extra players can do in a reasonable weeknight session. Reasonable at least from my group's point of view.

When there are even just 5 times as many regular players in the population, it is going to be a pretty tight competition for these limited resources. Keep in mind that there are not any instances that are created simply by entering a portal. What is on the map is it. When almost all of the organized "groups" can easily field two or more full parties, conflict and/or speedy snatching will be the standard for many.

Maybe it will further encourage the development of some random encounter instances or something.

Edit: To avoid the same tired objections, please do not assume that by "instance" I mean "private and exclusive".
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bringslite
Midnight
I'm just warning the people who do have a desire for territoriality that they would be better served by standardizing things and making it easier to comprehend for people whose first inclination is to comply. The more work it is for someone to understand, the less inclined people are to comply.

How is it handled in EVE? A pretty large relatively "safe" zone?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Edam
Bringslite
How is it handled in EVE? A pretty large relatively "safe" zone?

EVE is quite different. There is safety all over the place. While docked at stations for example you are totally invulnerable. If you park your ship in a remote area of space off the major routes between stellar objects and stealth and go AFK it is virtually impossible for anyone to find you.

But its also a lot easier to track people down. Unless you are in a wormhole, the chat gives you a list of everyone in a system and there are NPC agents that will locate the general location of characters for you (a bit like having an NPC wizzie in PFO that, for a price, will tell you what hex a character is currently in).

THE SAFE PARTS OF EVE:

Hisec
  • unsanctioned PvP results in immediate death at the hands of NPC Concord. Thus in hisec unsanctioned PvP usually only occurs when the attackers have a good chance of killing the target before Concord arrives and the loot from the target is enough to replace the attackers lost ships. The occasional easy to kill target like a mining ship or newbie frigate may be killed for "lulz" or to pad killmail lists or maybe for extortion but its relatively rare.
  • sanctioned PvP generally takes on of two forms, duels which are in theory at mutual player consent and where there is a war declaration which is similiar to PFO feuds. With sanctioned PvP the NPCs do not interfere.

SOV losec
    This area is even safer than hisec. These areas are occupied and policed by the large player alliances. The difference here is the game has mechanics that allows groups to establish control over the relavant systems and to tag friendly and unfriendly players and so unfriendlies are immediately visible.

THE UNSAFE PARTS OF EVE:

Losec

    Losec has a bit of a wild west spin to it (it is where I spent most of my EVE time) and there is minimal NPC intervention. It is also however one of the least populated parts of EVE.

Wormhole Space
    This is an anything goes area where you cannot even see in chat who is in system and there are no NPCs whatsoever. Also your wormholes move so your "neighbors" change regularly. Setting up in Wormhole space is lucrative but potentially very dangerous.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Edam
Post patch - the escalations are back loaded with most of the value in the boss.
We have not found this true. The one Legends escalation that the entire HRC was able to work provided more T3 recipes from the working than from the boss. While the boss is clearly more useful now to kill than to leave standing around, it is by no means the largest value in the escalation.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
 
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