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Posturing?

Drogon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
…..if I go there now, Jokken has no way of knowing where I am and what I am doing. If he decides there is political value in it, he can ask me not to do it and I will obey or not. he still won't know what I'm doing.

No accountability whatsoever.
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Drogon
Caldeathe Baequiannia
…..if I go there now, Jokken has no way of knowing where I am and what I am doing. If he decides there is political value in it, he can ask me not to do it and I will obey or not. he still won't know what I'm doing.

No accountability whatsoever.
You say that as though you know what every person attached to a BHA comapny is doing when you aren't present. If Jokken gives me an order and finds out I didn't follow it, he has the same options you do.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
harneloot
Bringslite
harneloot
Bringslite
It is ridiculous to invade, expect that territory then to be respected as yours by those you invade, and further expect to paint the invaded as the wrongful party when they begin conflict to try and get YOU "the invader" to leave the invaded area.

You don't get to do things like invade people and then call their reactions to that the reason that you invaded, or the reason that you are justified. The server is not quite that stupid, but nice try.

There was no invasion. The *group* of associated settlements and players known as HRC that had disavowed territory claims for months finally made a large claim of hexes. Brighthaven disagreed with the claim for whatever reason and made a counter claim. So we each disagree with the other's claim. There is apparently little agreement on the validity of either groups claim or the various reasons they were made or how negotiations over the contested claim progressed. Objectively, neither claim has any more validity than the other. They had a few holdings in the area, we had a tavern. Both had been there for quite a while. Now there are more holdings there. The closest settlement to the contested area is an NPC settlement. The next closest settlements are 4 or 5 hexes away. Sounds like a territory control game being played by groups of opposing players to me.

If you choose to role that way, that is your choice. The server pressured The HRC to lay "legitimate claims" to the areas that they wanted to preserve for the use of their players and anyone else that they decided to let access them without needing drama.

That "declaration" is one of or possibly the most permissive on the server and instead of acknowledging it, since The BHA was a principle in pressuring for it, The BHA blunders in. Acting just like a "big group"(Midnight's Blob) that is so large that goodness, fairness, common sense, and wisdom is beyond it's ability to master any more.

The sad thing is, none of this was necessary, and many of us are a bit disappointed by these actions. If you want to make war, make war! Please don't try and throw out so many justifications, excuses, and ridiculous angles and expect us to nod and say "Well look at these new reasons, clearly The BHA is justified to do this and still be Good Guys"

Meh, you can spin it however it pleases you BL, but the fact remains that each claim has merits and none is appreciably more valid then the other. Renting hexes from some other loosely grouped collective 5 hexes away from the claimed hexes around our tavern is silly. You can throw your buzz words out as repeatedly as the politicians do hoping they will stick to something or someone I guess but that doesn't show much common sense or fairness and is nothing more than your particular flavor of posturing.
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Midnight
Bringslite
You don't get to do things like invade people and then call their reactions to that the reason that you invaded, or the reason that you are justified. The server is not quite that stupid, but nice try.

Requoting for wisdom.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Decius
Hobson Fiffledown
Now, now, now. With the whole down there attacking players bit, has no one has really put together anything in common with the characters that have been attacked? Most characters just go down in the journal. Loves me my notes…

Our land was invaded and occupied. Leaders of the invading settlements, members of any primary/founding company of those invading settlements, and members of the occupying companies all seem like fair targets for a defender taking action against an aggressor. Find me a (recent) target outside of those groups and I will apologize. smile

Any suggested timeline which puts Hobson in the SE for anything other than retaliation against an invasion and occupation is incorrect.
Still trying to untangle who is speaking for the HRC and who is just throwing their two coppers in the pile: is this the consensus of the HRC, or only representative of one person's observation?
Welcome to the North. I'll bet that right about now you're starting to miss Benevolent Dictator. smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Hobson Fiffledown
Decius
Hobson Fiffledown
Now, now, now. With the whole down there attacking players bit, has no one has really put together anything in common with the characters that have been attacked? Most characters just go down in the journal. Loves me my notes…

Our land was invaded and occupied. Leaders of the invading settlements, members of any primary/founding company of those invading settlements, and members of the occupying companies all seem like fair targets for a defender taking action against an aggressor. Find me a (recent) target outside of those groups and I will apologize. smile

Any suggested timeline which puts Hobson in the SE for anything other than retaliation against an invasion and occupation is incorrect.
Still trying to untangle who is speaking for the HRC and who is just throwing their two coppers in the pile: is this the consensus of the HRC, or only representative of one person's observation?

Well, Hobson's name was thrown out there to support an incomplete narrative. So then I, being me, posted about him (since I am he and all that) to clear some things up about him regarding things that were said by another him about me, or he..he being Hobson.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. I'm almost surprised by the question. I mean, I understand where you're trying to go with all of this. But it's a pony show you don't have to go through (unless it's simply for the love of ponies, I would begrudge no one of their love for ponies). We're going down the checklist of the exact things that most of us expected from this current threat from the SE (us being anyone I have talked to about this little situation, and I talk frankly to a lot of different people). The next check mark has been taking for…ever. If it doesn't happen soon, I might be out a $5 bet. smile
This space for rent.
Midnight
Not directed to any one bloc, but probably more cogent to those who like lines on maps:

Here's the thing about ALL your claims… You are largely impotent to enforce them. Your choices seem to be

1) to kill the individuals you see ignore your claims. The problem with that is that when it comes to T3 gathering, rare localized T1 and T2 gathering, or high tier escalations an occasional death when detected and caught just isn't a deterrent.

2) a full on forever war with that individual's company/settlement/alliance/bloc/friends that either

a) destroys holdings that few people actually need the bulk goods from anymore (which also frees up banked influence for them to spend on feuds against you) or

b) targets all the offending individual's friendly PvE-ers with the hopes that it will influence them to punish/boot
the individual you are otherwise impotent against. The problem with that is that historically… the PvE-ers
who get attacked have NEVER brought sufficient pressure on any member to change their behaviors. There
exists over 18 months of evidence for that. Good luck on succeeding where the Forever War and
everyone else has failed, though.

On a somewhat tangential note:
As someone who has suggested (even in real life) that property is a fiction, I find it immensely entertaining to watch the HRC demonstrate it in game (regardless of whether that is their intent).
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Edam
Midnight
The problem with that is that historically… the PvE-ers
who get attacked have NEVER brought sufficient pressure on any member to change their behaviors. There
exists over 18 months of evidence for that. Good luck on succeeding where the Forever War and
everyone else has failed, though.

A historical perspective …

Generally during the Forever War, the KP established gatherers just took more precautions, gathered in quieter times, wore lower level gear, generally worked around it and regarded the odd unavoidable death as part of the running costs of gathering during wartime. My observation was that gatherer hunting only negatively effected newer players who tended to rage quit (rather than bring pressure to bare) or inspired players previously pressuring for negotiation to move into the "scorched earth attack and destroy" camp.

Also - invariably at some point random passing individuals from un-involved neutral settlements would get hit by mistake and this eventually led to more and more belligerents taking sides.

Attacking gatherers, mule runners, the crafters in town and so forth in enemy home territory is definitely an available option - but expect it to ESCALATE hostilities. It is not ever likely to bring people to the negotiation table.
Bringslite
harneloot
Bringslite
harneloot
Bringslite
It is ridiculous to invade, expect that territory then to be respected as yours by those you invade, and further expect to paint the invaded as the wrongful party when they begin conflict to try and get YOU "the invader" to leave the invaded area.

You don't get to do things like invade people and then call their reactions to that the reason that you invaded, or the reason that you are justified. The server is not quite that stupid, but nice try.

There was no invasion. The *group* of associated settlements and players known as HRC that had disavowed territory claims for months finally made a large claim of hexes. Brighthaven disagreed with the claim for whatever reason and made a counter claim. So we each disagree with the other's claim. There is apparently little agreement on the validity of either groups claim or the various reasons they were made or how negotiations over the contested claim progressed. Objectively, neither claim has any more validity than the other. They had a few holdings in the area, we had a tavern. Both had been there for quite a while. Now there are more holdings there. The closest settlement to the contested area is an NPC settlement. The next closest settlements are 4 or 5 hexes away. Sounds like a territory control game being played by groups of opposing players to me.

If you choose to role that way, that is your choice. The server pressured The HRC to lay "legitimate claims" to the areas that they wanted to preserve for the use of their players and anyone else that they decided to let access them without needing drama.

That "declaration" is one of or possibly the most permissive on the server and instead of acknowledging it, since The BHA was a principle in pressuring for it, The BHA blunders in. Acting just like a "big group"(Midnight's Blob) that is so large that goodness, fairness, common sense, and wisdom is beyond it's ability to master any more.

The sad thing is, none of this was necessary, and many of us are a bit disappointed by these actions. If you want to make war, make war! Please don't try and throw out so many justifications, excuses, and ridiculous angles and expect us to nod and say "Well look at these new reasons, clearly The BHA is justified to do this and still be Good Guys"

Meh, you can spin it however it pleases you BL, but the fact remains that each claim has merits and none is appreciably more valid then the other. Renting hexes from some other loosely grouped collective 5 hexes away from the claimed hexes around our tavern is silly. You can throw your buzz words out as repeatedly as the politicians do hoping they will stick to something or someone I guess but that doesn't show much common sense or fairness and is nothing more than your particular flavor of posturing.

Sigh. Not trying to spin anything. Just sharing my view on the matter. What it looks like. How it feels. Memories it brings back of some of the ways that the old EBA operated. I am not sure that the biggest groups in any closed environment can help but be different or even just be perceived differently. Definitely going to try and learn something from this in the event that The Dominion gets large enough to qualify as a Blob, though.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Mistwalker
Drogon
Now it has gone way beyond… I find it completely hypocritical for HRC to criticize BHA over the trespassing incident with Krullem while HRC leadership knew that Hobson was already in our homelands killing people. I also find it extremely hypocritical for everyone of HRC leadership to deny being "the" leader and to deny answering to any real authority. You then expect others to recognize your claims as a single entity, but, you only seem to care about claims when they suit your fancy.

Hmm, seems we have a different recollection on the event and posts in the forums.
When BHA placed +4 holdings and outposts in HRC claimed territory, during negotiations, the HRC viewed that as an act of war. I clearly stated that a state of hostilities exist between our alliances.

It was after the declaration of hostilities that Hobson went south and started hunting BHA players. No, he did not let anyone know what he planned, but he did let us know that he was misbehaving down south, after he started. We are at war, and Hobson decided to wage a guerrilla war.

The HRC never did criticise the BHA for Krellum's tresspass - we simply killed him.
You then offered an apology for Krellum's actions, but demanded an apology from the HRC for killing him near the Tavern, in BHA territory (interesting attempt to get the HRC to inadvertently agree to your territorial claim).

Jokken is the official leader of the HRC (he lost the coin toss).
Mistwalker if the point of contact for HRC and BHA negotiations (I was giving BHA actions the benefit of the doubt, so was told that I should deal with them then).
 
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