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Posturing?

Mistwalker
Copied from the High Road claim thread, in case anyone is not following that little thread too.

Drogon
For all of the reasons cited in other threads… BHA officially does not recognize any HRC blanket claims as a single political entity. BHA no longer considers the HRC blanket claim to have any validity. BHA does consider Caer Coedwig to be a valid claim on the behalf of the Dominion. If individual settlements of the HRC would like to present their own individual claim with the leader of said settlement committing to be responsible for that settlements actions then BHA will consider validating and recoginzing each claim in turn. BHA offers a 5 day grace period to do so. I urge other groups to follow suit and ask for individual settlement claims to be presented.

I find it interesting that you have never emailed me Drogon, even though it has been pointed out that I am the contact for BHA discussions. And I was the HRC settlement leader that posted the territorial claim.

It would appear that "you" aren't really interested in negotiations as you keep claiming, but in dictating to the HRC. I suspect that your attempt to split off HRC settlements is doomed to failure - especially with the multiple accusations, insults and demands that you have sent HRC's way recently.

Myself and several others have refrained from gathering in BHA territory (as mentioned previously, I have traded with you for T# resources only available in BHA territory). We have discouraged others from gathering in your area. I see no point in continuing to show restraint in gathering in BHA territory.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Midnight
Not directed to any one bloc, but probably more cogent to those who like lines on maps:

Here's the thing about ALL your claims… You are largely impotent to enforce them. Your choices seem to be

1) to kill the individuals you see ignore your claims. The problem with that is that when it comes to T3 gathering, rare localized T1 and T2 gathering, or high tier escalations an occasional death when detected and caught just isn't a deterrent.

2) a full on forever war with that individual's company/settlement/alliance/bloc/friends that either

a) destroys holdings that few people actually need the bulk goods from anymore (which also frees up banked influence for them to spend on feuds against you) or

b) targets all the offending individual's friendly PvE-ers with the hopes that it will influence them to punish/boot
the individual you are otherwise impotent against. The problem with that is that historically… the PvE-ers
who get attacked have NEVER brought sufficient pressure on any member to change their behaviors. There
exists over 18 months of evidence for that. Good luck on succeeding where the Forever War and
everyone else has failed, though.

On a somewhat tangential note:
As someone who has suggested (even in real life) that property is a fiction, I find it immensely entertaining to watch the HRC demonstrate it in game (regardless of whether that is their intent).

It's not about enforcing it (entirely), we'll do the best we can but it's mainly about expectation of behavior, we're lawful so we try to act in a predictable codified manner. Our claim is just telling you what that is, it's to remove the unknown when meeting us out and about.
Bringslite
Duffy Swiftshadow
Midnight
Not directed to any one bloc, but probably more cogent to those who like lines on maps:

Here's the thing about ALL your claims… You are largely impotent to enforce them. Your choices seem to be

1) to kill the individuals you see ignore your claims. The problem with that is that when it comes to T3 gathering, rare localized T1 and T2 gathering, or high tier escalations an occasional death when detected and caught just isn't a deterrent.

2) a full on forever war with that individual's company/settlement/alliance/bloc/friends that either

a) destroys holdings that few people actually need the bulk goods from anymore (which also frees up banked influence for them to spend on feuds against you) or

b) targets all the offending individual's friendly PvE-ers with the hopes that it will influence them to punish/boot
the individual you are otherwise impotent against. The problem with that is that historically… the PvE-ers
who get attacked have NEVER brought sufficient pressure on any member to change their behaviors. There
exists over 18 months of evidence for that. Good luck on succeeding where the Forever War and
everyone else has failed, though.

On a somewhat tangential note:
As someone who has suggested (even in real life) that property is a fiction, I find it immensely entertaining to watch the HRC demonstrate it in game (regardless of whether that is their intent).

It's not about enforcing it (entirely), we'll do the best we can but it's mainly about expectation of behavior, we're lawful so we try to act in a predictable codified manner. Our claim is just telling you what that is, it's to remove the unknown when meeting us out and about.
That has to be the 546th attempt to reason about this concept. I believe that it is useless and a waste of The Cloud's pixels. smile
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Drogon
Mistwalker
Copied from the High Road claim thread, in case anyone is not following that little thread too.

Drogon
For all of the reasons cited in other threads… BHA officially does not recognize any HRC blanket claims as a single political entity. BHA no longer considers the HRC blanket claim to have any validity. BHA does consider Caer Coedwig to be a valid claim on the behalf of the Dominion. If individual settlements of the HRC would like to present their own individual claim with the leader of said settlement committing to be responsible for that settlements actions then BHA will consider validating and recoginzing each claim in turn. BHA offers a 5 day grace period to do so. I urge other groups to follow suit and ask for individual settlement claims to be presented.

I find it interesting that you have never emailed me Drogon, even though it has been pointed out that I am the contact for BHA discussions. And I was the HRC settlement leader that posted the territorial claim.

It would appear that "you" aren't really interested in negotiations as you keep claiming, but in dictating to the HRC. I suspect that your attempt to split off HRC settlements is doomed to failure - especially with the multiple accusations, insults and demands that you have sent HRC's way recently.

Myself and several others have refrained from gathering in BHA territory (as mentioned previously, I have traded with you for T# resources only available in BHA territory). We have discouraged others from gathering in your area. I see no point in continuing to show restraint in gathering in BHA territory.
The last email I received from you stated that we were at an impasse and neither side was willing to apologize nor give concessions. Others in your group have stated quite clearly that negotiations will not continue until our holdings are removed. Our side has been willing to apologize, still open to offer concessions but not willing to remove the holdings in order to negotiate their replacement in the same hexes. Why should I continue to send emails?

When there is a definitive authority that accepts full responsibility and demands accountability for all HRC members, BHA is willing to reconsider the recognition of the HRC blanket claim. Until then, any HRC settlement may make a separate claim. As long as they have a leader willing to accept respoibilty for their settlemmet members and their declaration does not include any of our BHA-2 (Insert EDIT) claimed hexes we will recognize each claim in turn. I do recognize that you have retrained yourself from gathering in BHA lands and appreciate you doing so. Currently I am still restraining BHA members from entering HRC claimed territory.

EDIT: Nor includes any of our BHA1
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Drogon
Midnight
Not directed to any one bloc, but probably more cogent to those who like lines on maps:

Here's the thing about ALL your claims… You are largely impotent to enforce them. Your choices seem to be

1) to kill the individuals you see ignore your claims. The problem with that is that when it comes to T3 gathering, rare localized T1 and T2 gathering, or high tier escalations an occasional death when detected and caught just isn't a deterrent.

2) a full on forever war with that individual's company/settlement/alliance/bloc/friends that either

a) destroys holdings that few people actually need the bulk goods from anymore (which also frees up banked influence for them to spend on feuds against you) or

b) targets all the offending individual's friendly PvE-ers with the hopes that it will influence them to punish/boot
the individual you are otherwise impotent against. The problem with that is that historically… the PvE-ers
who get attacked have NEVER brought sufficient pressure on any member to change their behaviors. There
exists over 18 months of evidence for that. Good luck on succeeding where the Forever War and
everyone else has failed, though.

On a somewhat tangential note:
As someone who has suggested (even in real life) that property is a fiction, I find it immensely entertaining to watch the HRC demonstrate it in game (regardless of whether that is their intent).
Wow, I'd have to say that's probably the most unbiased post I remember reading of yours smile

I don't think anyone wants a forever war again. If only given these limited choices, I think option 1 is more tangible and sustainable. I am also concerned about how NewCorp plays into all of this. Who are they, which settlement do they belong to, is it Cal?!? Also the major changes they will potentially make to combat and territorial control. What we have done has set the arena for a limited scope of territorial control warfare. If HRC decides to continue to use guerilla tactics and invade our homelands then any escalation beyond the Haven area will be their own doing. We are prepared to respond with force yet still open to reasonable negotiations with a decisive leader who holds their members accountable for their actions.
HpoD - "I have, however, sat and watched as others took things more personally (on both sides) and became zealots, charging forward on a shining white horse into a pile of shit. Forum Warriors at their peak, striding the battlefield knee deep in the bloody, broken arguments of their adversaries before the burning village of their credibility….Chill guys. "
Hobson Fiffledown
I would also agree that no one wants a forever war. They're not very productive for anyone and they're not much fun for anyone involved. The biggest problem, I believe, is that the only two real options for warfare are Ineffective/Symbolic and BURN THE WORLD DOWN. That means we either don't do much at all or escalate things to a silly level.

Despite as much fun as creating a little havoc behind enemy lines sounds, it's just not very effective right now (don't get me wrong, it is still a little fun). Is strip mining really very effective other than against some T3 supply? I thought it was supposed to be rare and problematic to build and equip anyway. Does disrupting any bulk or material supplies affect anyone's machine very much after so much build up?

It's going to be a tough nut for NewCorp to crack, PvP.

I also sort of wonder who the player link is. The BURN THE WORLD DOWN part of me wonders if it's Andius. smile

Edit: Ooo! Can I get in trouble for this idea? (I just… See? It's like I can't help it.)
I am not the player link.
This space for rent.
Midnight
I still find it hard to imagine that a significant number of players don't know who it is. We gossip like a quilting bee. While I could see someone clamming up (out of professionalism) once things started looking serious, I can't imagine that in the days prior to that, when the player couldn't know their company would be interested, that they didn't excitedly tell their mates about the possibility, nor that their mates haven't gossiped it to any friendlies.

While I have zero evidence to support my hunch… my bet on which player it is has always been Nihimon. One observation (though it doesn't qualify as evidence) that does support my hunch is that I haven't heard who the player is, so someone from an enemy settlement explains the lack of gossip reaching me.

It is possible that NewCorp will never tell us, though. I would consider that a mistake. Transparency is better than what would result from a lack of transparency.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
The thing that might be overlooked in all of this is that there are really only two reasons that we are laying out territory declarations or that we feel we need to. Neither of these reasons will be tenable when the population grows.

Escalations. Everybody understands this.

T3 resource scarcity. There are three very important ones in a fairly small area of the map and the only instances of them are controlled by one alliance. They have always been willing to trade other things for them, so it isn't as if they are monopolizing all access. It does have the potential to go sideways however, and that does (or has for The Dominion) make other groups more motivated to guard resources near their settlements.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
MidniteArrow
Bringslite
The thing that might be overlooked in all of this is that there are really only two reasons that we are laying out territory declarations or that we feel we need to.

[ooc] I disagree. When a place is considered your "home", you want your name on the deed. If only for symbolic reasons.

Maybe the meta players only have these two reasons. We're not all meta players.
Drakis [Arrodima] [Default Speaker] [PvE Soldier, Empyrean Legion ]
Nijah [Arrodima] [Leader, The Argent Defenders, PvE]
Jinh [Arrodima] [Leader, The Concordian Council]
Ravenlute
Side question: Who here joined their Company/Settlement because of its alignment?

There are more than a few of us who did. We were drawn to that playstyle, attitude and outlook. It is then foolish to think that all groups operate the same way. Lawful people expect order, discipline and accountability at all levels of their social structure. They demand it of themselves and others. However, those who are not of the Lawful persuasion feel differently and will act differently. Trying to convince one type to be the other is a waste of time and, at this point, 13 pages of nonsense.

I know this makes sense to you all, even though you may deny it to save face among your peers. Carry on.
Myl - Herald of Stone Bear Clan (Tavernhold)
"You can walk into Tavernhold but a horse will have to carry you out."
 
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