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Wondering if this is worth a go

Wolf of Rathglen
I've never have to grind for gates except when I'm starting a brand new area catching it up to par with my other skills, or spending months of xp in a single go.

Almost always the gates have been taken care of through normal gameplay before enough xp has gathered to think of my next training (and that is their purpose, to prevent a character with 20 months xp from spending it all and slamming into the world in 1 hour).
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
Midnight
Proxima Sin
I've never have to grind for gates except when I'm starting a brand new area catching it up to par with my other skills, or spending months of xp in a single go.

Almost always the gates have been taken care of through normal gameplay before enough xp has gathered to think of my next training (and that is their purpose, to prevent a character with 20 months xp from spending it all and slamming into the world in 1 hour).

Please note, I'm not calling the game grindy EXCEPT for people who want a lot of accounts. I agree that in the case of normal play, most gates aren't a problem, especially if you've been grouping.

My warning is only meant to warn folks who see the passive xp aspect of the game and don't realize that gating is going to require time spent ingame for EACH account. There are hundreds of thousands of Eve-Online players who would be wasting their money if they tried to do in PFO what they do in Eve.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
Midnight
Proxima Sin
I've never have to grind for gates except when I'm starting a brand new area catching it up to par with my other skills, or spending months of xp in a single go.

Almost always the gates have been taken care of through normal gameplay before enough xp has gathered to think of my next training (and that is their purpose, to prevent a character with 20 months xp from spending it all and slamming into the world in 1 hour).

Please note, I'm not calling the game grindy EXCEPT for people who want a lot of accounts. I agree that in the case of normal play, most gates aren't a problem, especially if you've been grouping.

My warning is only meant to warn folks who see the passive xp aspect of the game and don't realize that gating is going to require time spent ingame for EACH account. There are hundreds of thousands of Eve-Online players who would be wasting their money if they tried to do in PFO what they do in Eve.
I agree with Midnight here. It is grindy when playing multiple accounts if those ALTs require more action based achievements AND used to be challenging(a tiny bit) in terms of coin costs to train multiple Alts. THAT IS A COMEPLETELY SELF INFLICTED GRIND, but it is not a bad thing to make it common knowledge.

With only one or a few accounts, that you play regularly, it is barely noticeable at all. With an active group around you, it is a breeze and just normal play takes care of almost all of it.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Edam
To be really clear on this.

Achievements fill the role XP does in most other games. In other games you kill stuff (or craft or whatever) to get XP to gain new skills (usually when you level up). In this game you kill stuff to get achievements to gain new skills.

They really should have used a name like "training credits" instead of XP.

Is the OP actually still reading this thread ?
Midnight
Edam
To be really clear on this.

Achievements fill the role XP does in most other games. In other games you kill stuff (or craft or whatever) to get XP to gain new skills (usually when you level up). In this game you kill stuff to get achievements to gain new skills.

They really should have used a name like "training credits" instead of XP.

It is actually rather tragic, from a revenue point of view.

PFO has incorporated the worst of two worlds, if you're a new player. Unlike effort based xp games, you can't catch up to the older players by being hardcore and matching the hours of play the older players put in over the years because the xp over time acts as a throttle, so GW suffers from players who get bored and go elsewhere because they aren't willing to watch a calendar before they become competitive and the game gets fun to them.

And casual players find they can't fully utilize many accounts like they can in Eve, so they pay for fewer accounts than they can afford to.

Both these systems chase revenue from the game, even from people willing to have tried the game (in the former case), and even from people who like the game (in the latter case).
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Decius
Just out of curiousity, how many newish potential players have told you that they wouldn't subscribe because they would have to wait almost as long as everyone else had to wait to reach the same level?
Edam
Midnight
Edam
To be really clear on this.

Achievements fill the role XP does in most other games. In other games you kill stuff (or craft or whatever) to get XP to gain new skills (usually when you level up). In this game you kill stuff to get achievements to gain new skills.

They really should have used a name like "training credits" instead of XP.

It is actually rather tragic, from a revenue point of view.

PFO has incorporated the worst of two worlds, if you're a new player. Unlike effort based xp games, you can't catch up to the older players by being hardcore and matching the hours of play the older players put in over the years because the xp over time acts as a throttle, so GW suffers from players who get bored and go elsewhere because they aren't willing to watch a calendar before they become competitive and the game gets fun to them.

And casual players find they can't fully utilize many accounts like they can in Eve, so they pay for fewer accounts than they can afford to.

Both these systems chase revenue from the game, even from people willing to have tried the game (in the former case), and even from people who like the game (in the latter case).
To be honest I am not really finding that.

Most of our long term active players keep adding accounts. It is really not that hard to get the training cash and achievements on multiple accounts. One of our guys got a new account with DAY 1 XP up to level 16 crafter in a week or two. You can get a combat character weapon achieves up in almost no time running in parties blitzing low levels. Aside from which the EVE thing of iso-boxing 20 or 30 miners has been banned and nearly all multi account EVE people PLEX.

As for the catching up thing. The odd new player we get who ignores all the negative publicity and forum doom-saying (or more likely never has read any of it) seems to really enjoy the game and is quite effective within a few weeks (we had a 2 week old player recently dropping party and pulling Ustie legend mobs for us) and by 3 months can be very competitive in one specialised area.

Sure if some prospective player is some insecure git that that needs to have the biggest killmail list on the server, be instantly recognised on chat and in forums by name and expects to run their own guild/corp/settlement all with in a month or two of first logging in this is not the game for you. But those sort of players that need to stand out as "special" and looking for the newest shiniest thing to demonstrate their "leet skills" tend to be churn players anyway. It is actually good this game does not appeal to that sort of player.
Midnight
Decius
Just out of curiousity, how many newish potential players have told you that they wouldn't subscribe because they would have to wait almost as long as everyone else had to wait to reach the same level?

I may see more of it because I'm in a PvP guild and PvPers are more likely to notice (and dislike) an uneven playing field than PvE-ers. But I've seen dozens of free trial folks (who expressed dismay or frustration at waiting for calendar pages to turn) drift away before reaching the T2+2 plateau that is almost an essential to feel useful in PvP and not spend all your time running back from shrines.

Should they have stayed? Sure… but it comes back to how much frustration will a player put up with AND pay you $15 a month. Was an uneven playing field the ONLY thing that kept them from staying with the game? Who knows? There are so many reasons this unfinished game at $15 a month can't compare to finished free to play games that it is impossible to guess which reasons weighed more heavily. But I have heard people grouse about the calendar and disappear dozens of times.

Then again, maybe it was the grass.

I'll also re-iterate that a thirst for an even playing field might just be a PvP-centric thing, if you've never heard anyone complain about having to wait on a calendar to gather higher tier mats before drifting away from the game.

By the way, I'm not saying this is a fix-it-now problem. It's just one of the many ways players and revenue seem to slip through GW's fingers. They may have a view of the future where the combination of calendar xp and achievement gating makes brilliant sense in a completed game and outweighs the loss of the people I describe.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Gagnrath
Meh, it just a power gamer thing. Some people enjoy the slow climb to power and have fun doing the things they can do where they are at and look forward (with anticipation, no anger or disappointment) to the eventual rise in power. Just look at that new gatherer for Dominion as a case in point! Some people are power gamers only and never want to start their characters at level 1, they are obsessed with min/maxing and *winning* and are impatient if the DM doesn't level them each session (or the game doesn't provide them with an easy and quick way to be *uber*). That's fine, to each their own. I am sure the power gamers have plenty of different games to choose from. We choose this one however.
Midnight
Edam
Midnight
Edam
To be really clear on this.

Achievements fill the role XP does in most other games. In other games you kill stuff (or craft or whatever) to get XP to gain new skills (usually when you level up). In this game you kill stuff to get achievements to gain new skills.

They really should have used a name like "training credits" instead of XP.

It is actually rather tragic, from a revenue point of view.

PFO has incorporated the worst of two worlds, if you're a new player. Unlike effort based xp games, you can't catch up to the older players by being hardcore and matching the hours of play the older players put in over the years because the xp over time acts as a throttle, so GW suffers from players who get bored and go elsewhere because they aren't willing to watch a calendar before they become competitive and the game gets fun to them.

And casual players find they can't fully utilize many accounts like they can in Eve, so they pay for fewer accounts than they can afford to.

Both these systems chase revenue from the game, even from people willing to have tried the game (in the former case), and even from people who like the game (in the latter case).
To be honest I am not really finding that.

Most of our long term active players keep adding accounts. It is really not that hard to get the training cash and achievements on multiple accounts. One of our guys got a new account with DAY 1 XP up to level 16 crafter in a week or two. You can get a combat character weapon achieves up in almost no time running in parties blitzing low levels. Aside from which the EVE thing of iso-boxing 20 or 30 miners has been banned and nearly all multi account EVE people PLEX.

As for the catching up thing. The odd new player we get who ignores all the negative publicity and forum doom-saying (or more likely never has read any of it) seems to really enjoy the game and is quite effective within a few weeks (we had a 2 week old player recently dropping party and pulling Ustie legend mobs for us) and by 3 months can be very competitive in one specialised area.

Sure if some prospective player is some insecure git that that needs to have the biggest killmail list on the server, be instantly recognised on chat and in forums by name and expects to run their own guild/corp/settlement all with in a month or two of first logging in this is not the game for you. But those sort of players that need to stand out as "special" and looking for the newest shiniest thing to demonstrate their "leet skills" tend to be churn players anyway. It is actually good this game does not appeal to that sort of player.

While I don't mind losing would-be leets, even they represent revenue.

What I do miss is the folks who were willing to grind mobs to reach an even playing field but didn't have the patience to watch calendar pages turn while they paid a subscription because no amount of grinding alone would get them there. Those people's willingness to put in the same effort as their peers to catch up with their peers isn't an outrageous or unreasonable concept in gaming, even though it doesn't work in PFO (or Eve). Those were nice people and people whose revenue isn't funding PFO.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
 
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