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Wondering if this is worth a go

Midnight
Gagnrath
Meh, it just a power gamer thing. Some people enjoy the slow climb to power and have fun doing the things they can do where they are at and look forward (with anticipation, no anger or disappointment) to the eventual rise in power. Just look at that new gatherer for Dominion as a case in point! Some people are power gamers only and never want to start their characters at level 1, they are obsessed with min/maxing and *winning* and are impatient if the DM doesn't level them each session (or the game doesn't provide them with an easy and quick way to be *uber*). That's fine, to each their own. I am sure the power gamers have plenty of different games to choose from. We choose this one however.

Nothing wrong with a niche game. But are we part of a niche success or a niche failure?

He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Duffy Swiftshadow
A little blunt but: It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.

Aside, there are perks to both types of XP systems, I think ultimately the XP system PFO uses is closer to broad strokes fair and balanced than a typical XP grind system. There are still advantages for grind heavy players in the shape of coin and resources, it just won't change power progression directly.
Harad Navar
Duffy Swiftshadow
It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.
Stronly Agree
Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light.
Midnight
Duffy Swiftshadow
A little blunt but: It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.

Aside, there are perks to both types of XP systems, I think ultimately the XP system PFO uses is closer to broad strokes fair and balanced than a typical XP grind system. There are still advantages for grind heavy players in the shape of coin and resources, it just won't change power progression directly.

What are the perks to PFO's system?

The passive xp (which is a perk for casuals in Eve) seems to be negated by achievement gating.

The effort xp we see in most games which seems to be replicated by achievement gating (which could be a perk for hardcores) seems to be negated by passive xp.

I'm not seeing any ACTUALIZED perks.

I only see a weird sort of "balance" that chases away possible revenues from both audiences.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Harad Navar
Duffy Swiftshadow
It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.
Stronly Agree

Working as intended looks a lot like designed to fail, if you can't retain enough players to make up for the revenue your design chases off.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
I really don't mean to be a Negative Nellie in this thread. I just find it a bit maddening that people can so easily wave goodbye to revenue for a game that is struggling.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Huran
Midnight
Duffy Swiftshadow
A little blunt but: It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.

Aside, there are perks to both types of XP systems, I think ultimately the XP system PFO uses is closer to broad strokes fair and balanced than a typical XP grind system. There are still advantages for grind heavy players in the shape of coin and resources, it just won't change power progression directly.

What are the perks to PFO's system?

The passive xp (which is a perk for casuals in Eve) seems to be negated by achievement gating.

The effort xp we see in most games which seems to be replicated by achievement gating (which could be a perk for hardcores) seems to be negated by passive xp.

I'm not seeing any ACTUALIZED perks.

I only see a weird sort of "balance" that chases away possible revenues from both audiences.
There is one thing worth mentioning though I am not sure it should be called a perk per-say. Once you get a certain level of achievement (129 points seems to be a common max for most things), you are good to go for everything that area offers. Also you only need to get to achievement level 10 in one or two weapons then you are good to go for all those gates, but in most cases you only need to do it once for years of training.

For an example, my dex fighter needs subterfuge, adventuring and martial for nearly every feat he needs to train. Once I get 129 in each, I can train everything to max (except one or two specialized feats). So as a casual player, I need to get my light blade and my bow (since I am also an archer) up to level 10. I had to grind a bit (and yes it was a grind) to get those level 10's, but now after killing the right mobs for those two achievements all I need to do is collect XP and train. I literally never have to grind again because I already achieved what I need for my build for the next couple years of training. Crafting is the same way 129 craft points and I am golden. You still need to craft one of those certain types of +'s to go higher per category but that is not a grind if you get the mats from someone.

Do I need money? Yeah I still need money so depending on what I do to get paid I may need to still farm a bit for that training cash - not sure I would call that a grind but still worth noting.

Also worth noting, if I decide to add another class or train different attacks I will still need to grind for those achievements - but that would be my choice.

Again, not sure if this a perk of the system - but it does seem to get a little more casual friendly after the initial grind.
"Circles of power, gathered by EARTH, welcomed by GOLD, in strife and in mirth. Focused by CRYSTAL, guided by LIGHT, showing the way, by day and by night. wrought in IRON, strengthened by STEEL, together we stand, in wrack and in weal. Hidden in SHADOW, explored by WOOD, we circle together, for the greater good." –Maxikyd– http://www.kotcguild.com/
Midnight
Huran
Midnight
Duffy Swiftshadow
A little blunt but: It seems like the examples boil down to the game not appealing to people it wasn't going to appeal to, which is working as intended.

Aside, there are perks to both types of XP systems, I think ultimately the XP system PFO uses is closer to broad strokes fair and balanced than a typical XP grind system. There are still advantages for grind heavy players in the shape of coin and resources, it just won't change power progression directly.

What are the perks to PFO's system?

The passive xp (which is a perk for casuals in Eve) seems to be negated by achievement gating.

The effort xp we see in most games which seems to be replicated by achievement gating (which could be a perk for hardcores) seems to be negated by passive xp.

I'm not seeing any ACTUALIZED perks.

I only see a weird sort of "balance" that chases away possible revenues from both audiences.
There is one thing worth mentioning though I am not sure it should be called a perk per-say. Once you get a certain level of achievement (129 points seems to be a common max for most things), you are good to go for everything that area offers. Also you only need to get to achievement level 10 in one or two weapons then you are good to go for all those gates, but in most cases you only need to do it once for years of training.

For an example, my dex fighter needs subterfuge, adventuring and martial for nearly every feat he needs to train. Once I get 129 in each, I can train everything to max (except one or two specialized feats). So as a casual player, I need to get my light blade and my bow (since I am also an archer) up to level 10. I had to grind a bit (and yes it was a grind) to get those level 10's, but now after killing the right mobs for those two achievements all I need to do is collect XP and train. I literally never have to grind again because I already achieved what I need for my build for the next couple years of training. Crafting is the same way 129 craft points and I am golden. You still need to craft one of those certain types of +'s to go higher per category but that is not a grind if you get the mats from someone.

Do I need money? Yeah I still need money so depending on what I do to get paid I may need to still farm a bit for that training cash - not sure I would call that a grind but still worth noting.

Also worth noting, if I decide to add another class or train different attacks I will still need to grind for those achievements - but that would be my choice.

Again, not sure if this a perk of the system - but it does seem to get a little more casual friendly after the initial grind.

Definitely worth noting and worth reminding casuals of so they can relax about long-term casualness.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Bringslite
I have been around the inter-webz reading and even fighting to kill untruths about PfO. This includes a good deal of Dev statements taken completely out of context, twisted and used as ammo by haters. I did it for a long time on MMORPG.COM. Like us, they have their community of agitators, haters, and Yes Men. There are a few sensible people even those that do not support PfO but see and realize the rhetoric and hate.

The xp over time thing is a VERY SMALL portion of the complaints. Miniscule(less than 1 in 100 listed complainers) compared to the most glaring Deal Breakers for possible players. It is the quality of the game, as judged by these internet jocks and Yes men, that is Damning it. The problem is that the game is NOT NEARLY FINISHED.

Now suppose that money gets infused and the poor overworked small team can get some more fingers to code and some more artists to draw and some more of everything they need. There will be a Grand Relaunch of some type. I would be fine(personally) if there was a complete wipe and xp started over, but that "xp over time" will still be a miniscule complaint a year after the relaunch, won't it?

If we are going to try and suggest things to make this game attractive, we know what they really are. The game needs to be as finished as most any MMO can be at a regular launch. They are never ever really FINISHED, but they need to be "feature full" and they need a lil polish and they NEED the major unique components of their "Niche Factors" up and running.

Instead of scrapping what is here (xp over time) because it DOES APPEAL to plenty of players, compromise with an ingenious "Catch Up Feature" that benefits new AND veteran players. <—But only if it can really be shown that doing so will increase the player base. If it realty isn't a large potential player draw then accept it and move on. We already know that this game will not get and hold players that like zero PVP, nor will it get and hold players that want completely unrestricted PVP.

Trying to make a game that appeals to too many people results usually in disappointment(and short life spans) to players that would have been LONG term customers if they could only find the niche game they wanted that stuck to their guns in development.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Duffy Swiftshadow
The XP over time system levels out the play-time advantage and helps curbs the money advantage, particularly in the area of character power.

To do a particular task to some level of X there is no time (XP) difference between the person that can play 8 hours a day versus the person that can only play 4 hours a day as XP is a constant. It will take them the same amount of time (XP) and about the same effort to reach whatever target level of X. The key is that it's a mechanically enforced spread, negating the ability of folks with more time to exceed the power of those with less over some time-frame, either by passing them or creating more characters and maxing them out ASAP. Hitting Tier 2+2 if you planned efficiently is the same amount of real time for everyone.

If you have lots of money to spend you can gain some advantages via multiple accounts. However, this only really gives you an advantage in the opportunities you have for day to day play options. The net effect of your multiple accounts is no different than having more players working together, and they are still required to advance at the same progression as everyone else. Thus 8 hours and 10 accounts is not any better than 4 hours and 10 accounts.

The only real factors that a time advantage can help with is coin and raw resources, which is ultimately the true sign of capabilities once you hit the power plateaus. It is generally viewed that this sort of system really shines in a sandbox as it curbs or limits exponential power growth via play-time (assuming your leveling system has plateaus and limits on power depth like EVE and PFO), whereas racing up a leveling system to consume certain content at your preferred pace fits Themepark games better. Remember: Themeparks are about consuming the content whereas Sandboxes are about the time and interactions that happen in it, thus different progressions serve different purposes.

Is there some lower threshold of required activity level to keep the efficient pace? Sure, there always will be in any progression system, but at the moment I would say it is significantly lower than most other MMO grinds.

As to trying to chase revenue with significant alterations to features, that is a fools game. If you chase one group you lose another group. The way to maximize revenue is to basically trim out everything that is truly unique and copy those mechanics from other games that have already succeeded. In the MMO department oftentimes the end result is usually the most derivative and basic sort of feature set that if you're lucky will ultimately limp along until the next new exciting thing comes along before it finally dies.

The reason the game hasn't caught on a larger crowd I think is very simple: There isn't enough day to day play variety to draw interest and be useful at varying levels. If you hang around the starter area and talk to new people a lot (though they rarely trickle in as much these days) you see a very simple pattern: they sort out the mechanics then conclude there's nothing to do and quit. For a solo player it is kinda true, it's harder to find things to enjoy if you don't care for chasing coin or resource accumulation right now. Players that get into a group shortly after learning the basics tend to last longer and have a higher chance of forming enough of a bond to stick with the game, but it's still not guaranteed.

We've seen a lot of the notes for that variety of play it just never materialized due to the unfortunate lapse in financing. Based on that this current state is not a surprise in any way shape or form, however there is hope that if those features start getting added it will have the ability to keep interest of those potential players who are interested in a game with the base progression mechanics of PFO.
 
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