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Myth or History: Alpha Aristocracy

Bringslite
Moving some comments over here without the various posters' permissions, any real authority to be doing so, any real reason except I like to see forum activity….

Thorgrim Foegrinder
Lisa, once funding does come through I imagine the Outlaw Council will once again become useful. Have there been any thoughts on starting up regular meetings again once funding gets finalized?

kandorius
Quite frankly Thorgrim, you can take the Alpha Aristocracy BS and shove it.

Thanks for the update Lisa - we need this! Fingers crossed!

Thorgrim Foegrinder
Who said anything about "alpha" or "aristocracy"? "Alpha Aristocracy" was a term created by a member of one of the most toxic groups in the game to create more toxicity. Luckily they've since left the game, and we're all better off for it.

The Outlaw Council is one person from each settlement. There are several settlements I know of right off the top of my head whose leaders are not Alpha accounts. So I can basically say the same thing to you that you directed at me, only about spreading misinformation and toxicity. So there you go.

kandorius
Meh…the same seven or eight people own just about all the settlements in the game. The Alpha Aristocracy refers to the elitism of settlement ownership which was based on a popularity contest called the land rush which produced the first aristocracy - most of the current multiple settlement owners stem from that event/that group. So have your nice little insiders chats with the game owner Thorgrim et al and you can still stick the whole idea of it. It reeks of elitism; the very same group of people whining about a possible server wipe and all their precious advantages make up this bogus *council* - the whole idea of it is an affront to all the other players of the game.

Edam
The alpha aristocracy myth was created by a couple of players that sucked at large scale organised PvP (but were probably OK at ganking gatherers) and decided to invent stories about how they were being blobbed and how certain alpha players were "favored" to explain their own incompetence. The same guys that pushed for major detrimental balance changes to combat because they were incapable of adjusting their tactics to cope with anything interesting.

not to matter – multiple settlements were available for capture by quite small groups for most of 2016 so if there ever was an alpha aristocracy it is gone now.

Lifedragn
Many of the people running settlements now are quite different from those who were holding settlements at the end of the Land Rush. These people ARE largely within the same organized groups because… organized groups maintain the highest activity levels and are thus most likely to purchase accounts going up for sale that are associated with settlement governing or using the in-game mechanics to capture abandoned settlements. The latter case is being an active member of the game and not some aristocracy status.

Regardless, Outlaw Council and existence or absence of Alpha Aristocracy can probably best be moved off into separate threads.

Doc
Thorgrim Foegrinder
Who said anything about "alpha" or "aristocracy"? "Alpha Aristocracy" was a term created by a member of one of the most toxic groups in the game to create more toxicity. Luckily they've since left the game, and we're all better off for it.

I coined the term originally, you can go back in the forum records to February of 2015 I believe to see that. It was during my public rebuke of the NAP on the forums.

Toxic? Heh, can't say I recall you doing anything publically to help the community, but hey I could be wrong, if I am I apologize for that remark. But for myself I created numerous guides and did things like sit at the newbie spawn areas for hours at a time for months to help players through the terrible starting experience.

Edam
The alpha aristocracy myth was created by a couple of players that sucked at large scale organised PvP (but were probably OK at ganking gatherers) and decided to invent stories about how they were being blobbed and how certain alpha players were "favored" to explain their own incompetence. The same guys that pushed for major detrimental balance changes to combat because they were incapable of adjusting their tactics to cope with anything interesting.

Hardly a myth, and no stories needed to be invented. Anybody who was more than just a font of cynicism and sarcasm on the forums could have observed the reality of the political map. I certainly never pushed for any balance changes though. Maybe you are confusing or conflating my opinions with others though, wouldn't be surprising. Even years later when this game is all but dead the same people are still spreading lies and BS. It's mind-boggling, and a bit sad on a certain level, though I suppose no more ridiculous than me spending $15 to defend myself on a forum.

Some of the institutions that were in the Land Rush are still around(in some form) but most are led by different players all together. Many of the settlements are led by Post Alpha players. There are less Pre Alpha individuals around now than most realize. While it certainly is a cute concept and a really great theory as to why some have succeeded and some have not, it is really only an excuse now and an insult to those who have come after the Pre Alpha crowd and scraped their own settlements together… The Hard Way.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
With all these folks selling their stuff off it looks like there will hopefully be less of this anyway. I ain't worried too much.

Bringslite
Some of the institutions that were in the Land Rush are still around(in some form) but most are led by different players all together. Many of the settlements are led by Post Alpha players. There are less Pre Alpha individuals around now than most realize. While it certainly is a cute concept and a really great theory as to why some have succeeded and some have not, it is really only an excuse now and an insult to those who have come after the Pre Alpha crowd and scraped their own settlements together… The Hard Way.

+1
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Stilachio Thrax
Any talk of the Alpha Aristocracy at this point is just being thrown out to stir crap up and troll the forums. Most of the so-called Alpha Aristocracy sold off accounts or shut down accounts long ago. Many of their settlements are being run by post-Alpha players, and some post-Alpha players have managed to capture settlements.

Paddy is the perfect example of someone who came into the game later, put effort into achieving something, and has succeeded. No bitching or whining that things were unfair and he could never compete. If the "Alpha Aristocracy Whine Brigade" put half the effort they put into whining into actually playing the game like Paddy did, they'd have a settlement by now.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Decius
There is a tiny grain of truth in the feeling. The politics and choosing of sides began long before EE began. Anyone who entered on day 1 had roughly zero ability to create their own side, and had to choose one of the existing ones. But at that time there were over 30 settlements and I didn't see anyone trying to find one that they fit in and failing to do so.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
To be fair tho, on the flipside we were very lucky and privileged to have Aragon and later Mediash taking us under their wing and giving us room to be ourselves. They also supported our settlement takeover (we could not have built that all ourselves) and are the main reason it has buildings. We almost broke their bank as they tried to build up three settlements at one point.

I feel like that often gets overlooked. If it wasn't for them Dun Baile would not be where it was today and most of what has been accomplished may not have happened at all. If no settlement would have taken us in we could have been Dead On Arrival lol.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Midnight
The outlaw council leaves most players out of certain discussions and depends on those included to decide exactly what (if anything) to tell the rest of us. If you're not in a settlement you have absolutely no one to inform you that there was a meeting or what was discussed.

My selection of a settlement did not confer to that settlement any rights over the GoblinWorks/Midnight customer relationship. My settlement doesn't speak for me as a crowdforger, or as a customer. I'm concerned when a discussion of bannable behavior didn't include me, and frankly I'm the sort of egalitarian that doesn't want anyone listened to more than anyone else.

At least in Eve player "representatives" were elected, and even then there were shenanigans and corruption.

In real life, I've chosen to live in sunshine states where it is illegal to secretly or privately hold meetings regarding public policy. Seeing private meetings about policies in what could be my "second life" is actually a little nauseating to me and I'll always argue for an open and egalitarian process, and the less I see of that, the less I'm inclined to spend time and money on this game.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Midnight
Edam:
The alpha aristocracy myth was created by a couple of players that sucked at large scale organised PvP (but were probably OK at ganking gatherers) and decided to invent stories about how they were being blobbed and how certain alpha players were "favored" to explain their own incompetence. The same guys that pushed for major detrimental balance changes to combat because they were incapable of adjusting their tactics to cope with anything interesting.

not to matter – multiple settlements were available for capture by quite small groups for most of 2016 so if there ever was an alpha aristocracy it is gone now.



The Alpha Aristocracy refers to people who gained influence during the land rush and who (even to this day) cannot be removed (by game mechanics) as settlement owners. The complaints weren't about winning or losing PvP, every side has had good and bad days. The complaints were about fairness, enjoyability, and what was going to be best in the long run.

I'll also point out that EVERY abandoned settlement that was captured… was captured by companies from an existing settlement, and NONE of those companies had the 23/7 PvP windows that an unassociated company would have faced during the capture period.

So the alpha aristocracy and its legacy pledges still control the entirety of the settlements in the game. Whether one believes that those legacy pledges are NOW independent of their former homes depends on one's trust/gullibility.

I'm not saying the alpha aristocracy are bad people. I'm just not in favor of giving them MORE power and influence. I don't think it is good for the game, and I don't think 10,000 new players will find that appealing, either. I say that even though I'm technically a member of an Alpha Aristocracy settlement.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Well, where do I begin with my response…

Well on one hand:

Midnight
The outlaw council leaves most players out of certain discussions and depends on those included to decide exactly what (if anything) to tell the rest of us. If you're not in a settlement you have absolutely no one to inform you that there was a meeting or what was discussed.

This doesn't bother me all that much even though I've never been at one of these things (don't remember ever hearing of one being convened once we took Dun Baile anyway lol). The idea of making this a direct democracy thing as the population actually starts growing again once all the funding stuff finally kicks in sounds crazy. You just can't do that unless you're holding a press conference I suppose. If this is supposed to be some kind of meet and discuss you can't do that with hundreds or thousands of folks. That's insane.

Also, from what I was told, didn't the devs used to have some periodic town hall type things in the Golarion Mumble anyway where everyone in the game was invited or something? I don't know for sure cause I don't think I was around when those were a thing (either that or I didn't pay attention when it was?). If so, I'm having a hard time figuring out what the beef here is.

What was even done at these outlaw councils anyway? I can't imagine any of the settlement leaders having any real say or power in GW's (or NewCorp's) design decisions.

Course, once they implement factions then I can see this as a problem. The good news then is, they will have implemented factions, the game would be much further along, and maybe we wont need some outlaw council anyway.

Now on the other hand:

Edam
not to matter – multiple settlements were available for capture by quite small groups for most of 2016 so if there ever was an alpha aristocracy it is gone now.

Just a few questions…

How many of those settlements went to newer groups as opposed to the old school power blocs? How many newer groups besides the Kathalpas Coalition were able to come into being and sustain themselves? How many times did newer alliances other than ours make a bid for these settlements?

When ya get down to it, how many non-Alpha groups actually exist or have existed in the past before Fianna came on the scene?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Trying to think of original leadership structures that still exist unchanged, even as low as single settlement point of view and still active in the most generous sense of the term…. These are guesses: Canis Castrum, Keeper's Pass, Phaeros, Emerald Lodge,…

I'm not even sure that those are all correct. My apologies if any are overlooked.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Edam
Bringslite
Trying to think of original leadership structures that still exist unchanged, even as low as single settlement point of view and still active in the most generous sense of the term…. These are guesses: Canis Castrum, Keeper's Pass, Phaeros, Emerald Lodge,…

I'm not even sure that those are all correct. My apologies if any are overlooked.

Though I was not actually around at the time I believe Keepers Pass was originally formed by an EVE group combined with a bunch of Italian players all of whom left before EE.

In our part of the map KP, Emerald Lodge and Phaeros seem to have original EE leaders while Hammerfall, Blackwood Glade, Sylva and Brighthaven seem to have changed hands (though Brighthaven is still a TEO settlement).
 
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