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The Very Most "UnFun Thing"

Flari-Merchant
There are tons of possibly bad results from "safe zones" in such a sandbox including gathering risk free and generating coin risk free from whatever mobs might be available. Not arguing that or that safe zones is part of the answer. Not going to argue that free and wide open PVP is a good idea either.

Just in the example of having to possibly personally(with players) defend your settlement 23/7 if you don't want gankers running through it is an example of doomed(or at least player base limiting) design IMO. It just isn't realistic in any reasonable population level scenario with so many settlements to work from.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite of Oz
Just in the example of having to possibly personally(with players) defend your settlement 23/7 if you don't want gankers running through it is an example of doomed(or at least player base limiting) design IMO. It just isn't realistic in any reasonable population level scenario with so many settlements to work from.

Another reason why I advocate for the Faction system having leveling/ranking support. So those who don't wanna play the settlement game can still play this instead. It will have its own ups and downs but not THOSE ups and downs.

You don't wanna play the constant back and forth of the settlement game then play the faction game instead. Thing is if you want territory and others want to invade or you want to invade them then you're gonna have to fight for it. Now the current way this all goes down is completely broken right now but part of it is because there is no way to HARM anyone on the other side in a way that makes them care. The good news is once they fix that there will be ways to actually do some real harm and so you don't have to deal with this 23/7. The flipside is someone can then harm you too, but that is just a natural consequence of political territory MMOs. You either work it out via war, diplomacy, or both. I get that constant base defense sucks and they should allow for some static defenses to be made. Still, ya can't get around the fact that if you're gonna go into a prolonged war or someone's gonna wage a guerrilla campaign that you gotta be ready to be in it for the long haul. You aren't always gonna have the luxury of deciding the terms and scope of a given war or being able to negotiate them.

Now if you can't exist outside of a settlement as part of a Faction, then I would agree with you because then the only way you can even play this game at all is through settlement politics. The solution though isn't to fundamentally alter the aspects of a territorial pvp sandbox entirely, but give a different way to play the game entirely for folks who don't wanna be forced into it.

That is how you expand your playerbase, by giving more options that attract different kinds of players in the first place.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Nihimon
Historically, the main problem with loss of support was that, at the time, it was not mechanically possible for anyone with full support to be more than 1 keyword above someone with no support.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Decius
I think that the politics of companies with Faction holdings will be similar enough to the politics of companies with settlement sites to be substantially similar.

In particular, if members of the Aspis Consortium start constantly ganking unaffiliated characters, several organizations (either companies or settlements) will offer protection by membership; if members of a company with faction holdings start attacking members of another organization too much, they can be turned into a company without any holdings.
Flari-Merchant
I have to wonder if we are "too much time-no fulfillment" speculating The Faction System into something that it was never intended to be. If we are doing so in a realistically possible and favorable(to the planned design) way. If we are setting ourselves up for a mighty disappointing end product that is far less deep and powerful and complex a set of mechanics than we are "crowdforging" up here..

Pathfinder(especially Pathfinder Society) seems to thrive on factions and their interplay for story line and arcs, but realistically how many can there be in an MMO? Why do "divine" feats get described as "Faction" attacks in their descriptions, leading some to think that factions are intended to be religion based/parsed? That leaves lots of really great Factions like the above Aspis Consortium at loose ends or is it just unfortunate wordage that needs a pass over?
Edam
Bringslite of Oz
I have to wonder if we are "too much time-no fulfillment" speculating The Faction System into something that it was never intended to be. If we are doing so in a realistically possible and favorable(to the planned design) way. If we are setting ourselves up for a mighty disappointing end product that is far less deep and powerful and complex a set of mechanics than we are "crowdforging" up here..

Pathfinder(especially Pathfinder Society) seems to thrive on factions and their interplay for story line and arcs, but realistically how many can there be in an MMO? Why do "divine" feats get described as "Faction" attacks in their descriptions, leading some to think that factions are intended to be religion based/parsed? That leaves lots of really great Factions like the above Aspis Consortium at loose ends or is it just unfortunate wordage that needs a pass over?
Block Cut and Paste from the faction Blog last March:
Factions

The faction system will allow players to have a relationship with NPC led groups like the Hellknights, the Pathfinder Society, etc. Characters will be able to earn points with factions by completing events, quests, etc. This will help them earn ranks within the faction, and these ranks offer access to special training, recipes, items, etc. Each faction will have enemy factions that you cannot join while a member of that faction and that you may be flagged as a reputation-free PvP target for members of opposing factions at higher ranks. So if you associate with the Hellknights and become a high ranking member, characters who have associated with the Crusader Knights will not suffer a reputation penalty for killing you in PvP and vice versa.

There are several matrices of factions planned, such as the Aspis Consortium vs. Pathfinder Society or Hellknights vs. Crusader Knights vs. Bandits of Thornkeep. You can join one faction within each of these matrices assuming you meet the requirements, so you can be both a Crusader Knight and a member of the Pathfinder Society at the same time.


Gods

Worshipping a god sits at the intersection of the Faction and Alignment systems. Worshipping a god requires your alignment be within one alignment step of that god, so you have to be Neutral Good, Lawful Good, or Lawful Neutral to worship Iomedae, who is Lawful Good. If your active alignment or core alignment moves out of this alignment range you will lose access to those Feats associated with your god that have alignment restrictions (primarily domain and special attacks associated with a specific god).

Each god also has a faction rating as well and all gods share the same faction matrix, thus you may only have a faction rating with one god at a time. Gods have a more complex relationship of hostility than other factions so you will not be hostile to all other god factions other than your own. Iomedae is hostile to Lamashtu, but is okay with Abadar, Serenrae, etc. Advancing your Cleric Feats above tier one will eventually require advancing your faction rating with your god. If you change god factions you will lose access to Feats if your new faction does not meet the Feat requirements. For example, the Fire domain will require ranks in either Asmodeus or Sarenrae as they both offer that domain, while the Sun domain will require ranks in either Iomedae or Sarenrae. Most domains are available to more than one god with our first batch of gods.

We will add more gods as time goes by, starting with major Golarion gods, and then moving to important local gods. Order and timing of these iterations to be Crowdforged.
Flari-Merchant
Thanks Edam!
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Hmm, the gods one seems pretty solid.

I dunno though, is NewCorp gonna stick with this old blog post for factions though? Cause as is it basically looks like it's just gonna be an add on for the settlement game and eventually become subservient to settlement politics and then we will back at square one with the same complaints as we have now.

I dunno man, there is a lot of types of playstyles that some of us have been advocating for (like real banditry that doesn't require ganking) that just won't work in a system where everything is subservient to settlements. If they decide to go with it as is I don't see much to hope for regarding the future of this game.

I'm gonna keep saying it, ya gotta have the two systems independent of one another, you can't have one become subservient to the other. Settlements dictating everything factions can and cannot do will simply turn factions into an extension of settlements and vice versa if the reverse is true. It simply won't work. I don't see many people doing Factions if it becomes just another part of settlement politics.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Midnight
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Hmm, the gods one seems pretty solid.

I dunno though, is NewCorp gonna stick with this old blog post for factions though? Cause as is it basically looks like it's just gonna be an add on for the settlement game and eventually become subservient to settlement politics and then we will back at square one with the same complaints as we have now.

I dunno man, there is a lot of types of playstyles that some of us have been advocating for (like real banditry that doesn't require ganking) that just won't work in a system where everything is subservient to settlements. If they decide to go with it as is I don't see much to hope for regarding the future of this game.

I'm gonna keep saying it, ya gotta have the two systems independent of one another, you can't have one become subservient to the other. Settlements dictating everything factions can and cannot do will simply turn factions into an extension of settlements and vice versa if the reverse is true. It simply won't work. I don't see many people doing Factions if it becomes just another part of settlement politics.

I can still visualize faction activity even in a settlement-centric world. People are going to want a PvP outlet that has less risk of becoming a grudge war that ruins one's game, and if factions are done well, people will want faction rewards. But, I'll be the first to admit that bossy settlements that meddle with factions could ruin factions.

He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I think it is more or less an inevitability. All it takes is for one settlement to accuse another (rightly or wrongly) of having their members make attacks on their settlement using factions to get around the system. It would be even worse if the accusations are true. It will lead to factions becoming politicized and polarized and then factions become an extension of settlement politics.

At some point either some settlement is gonna make the accusation and either be mistaken or hell even use it as a made up pretense to excuse their actions. Either that or some other settlement will in fact use factions as cover or to evade settlement mechanics.

Its why i dont thibk this design will work as written, if it stays that way at least one of these scenarios will eventually happen.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
 
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