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archers ammo and ranged attacks

BlackMoria
Rezzing this thread. Now that the road map states that this September, ammunition will be in the game, a number of questions come to mind.

How exactly does ammuntion like arrows work?

Does any arrows work? For example, using T1 arrows with a T2 or T3 bow? Works? Works but lessens the damage due to EPow of the wielder's bow? Works but lessens the damage due to EPow of target's gear? Both? Lots of questions.

Will the plus of arrows matter? How and in what?

Will arrow types like silver, cold iron, etc. be implemented at that time or is that later?

What will use charges for spellcaster types - staves? wands? divine implements? The same questions as to above for plus of charge gem and charges and stuff like axiomatic, holy, etc charges?
Flari-Merchant
Bob and Cole are really going to have to take a look at how ammo reqs affect everyday play. I believe that yes, the original ammo plan would require munitions(charges) for wands, staves, and foci as well as arrows for LB and SBs.

Not sure about how ammo is supposed to match up with various quality/level of instrument.

Various speed buffs(cantrips, orisons) have kept me sane on long runs across the map. Will most characters be able to afford ammunition usage on that scale? How much overkill is generated in PVE by attacks that will use ammo in the future?

Ammunition is going to make lots of things interesting.
Bob
We still need to finalize the design for the ammo system, something we won't really dig into until we're much closer to working on it, but I can give somewhat vague answers to some of the questions posted.

If a feat is set up to use ammunition, then 1 piece of ammunition will be used every time the feat is used. There are more details to how ammunition and containers work, but I need to look into that a lot more before I start talking about the details.

In general, all physical attacks with weapons like bows will use ammunition, and the majority of wand, staff and focus attacks (cantrips and orisons) will do so as well.

Using lower-tiered ammo will in some not-fully-determined way make your weapon act much more like the lower-tiered version of that weapon.

Plusses on ammunition will do something to improve the attack, with the current thought being that they'd increase your base damage.

Implementing keywords like Silver is a little more involved and affects lots of non-ammo things as well. Not sure when we'll be able to get to that.

I don't know exactly where the balance will wind up in terms of ammo-using attacks vs. non-ammo attacks. Some of the value of using ammo stems from being able to attack at a distance, so that advantage is part of what you're paying for through the cost of ammo. Overall, we'll want to balance things so that ammo is worth using regularly. We've also talked about having mobs drop some low-grade ammo so that you're not constantly running back to town for more, though you may need to do so if the mobs you're fighting require high-end ammunition. That said, using ammunition just to run quickly across the map will probably be a somewhat expensive choice, though not necessarily prohibitive.



The Eternal Balance
Having to use lots of ammo to make the long runs a bit more bearable (agile feat & energetic field) is concerning. As BL says, it makes some of these LONG and frequent runs bearable.

Using lower level ammo (cheap, affordable, easily obtained) is going to nerf higher level weapon/focus/wizard attacks?!?!?
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Decius
A +3 master's empowered charge uses 70c or so worth of raw material. +0 is 'only' about 19c each.

+0 disciple's simple charge costs about 0.6c in materials, so could sell for 1c. T2+0 about 1.5c, +3 about 5.

Is the intention that one could fund ammunition using a small fraction of the proceeds from loot? Because I need about 10 attacks or so to dispatch a single level-appropriate monster, and they drop a lot less than 2s on average, even counting salvage at raw material prices.

Arrows seem similar, except that I can't price t3 arrows accurately enough to include them at all.

Would it make sense to treat each item as a quiver, yielding 20 shots each? (Just multiplying the yield and carry capacity by 20 throws off the AH market unless prices lower than 1c can exist.)
Edam
The wizard Mastery feats ( "Cold Mastery"/"Fire Mastery" etc) provide bonus wand/staff attacks you can slot which, whilst somewhat under powered for their level, specifically state in the in-game mouse over they use no ammo.

Will similar "ammo free" attacks be available for bows and focuses ?

Also …
  • will melee (non ranged) attacks on wands, staffs and focuses also use ammo?
  • will heals and buffs consume ammo or will ammo just just be for attacks and debuffs?
  • what about thrown weapons such as the star knife ? Will the star knife need ammo ?
  • my impression is we will be able to use lower tier ammo on our t3 weapons and just slot the T3 ammo when we want the extra power … is that correct ?
  • If so, what about the other way around. Can we slot T3 ammo in a T1 weapon and will that T1 weapon get any benefit from the higher tier ammo ?
Bob
The Eternal Balance
Using lower level ammo (cheap, affordable, easily obtained) is going to nerf higher level weapon/focus/wizard attacks?!?!?

That's the way the most recent proposed design was written up, though it's important to note that's after a significant boost to the current damage for ammo attacks that aren't using ammo. The alternative is to make the base ammo attacks relatively weak (maybe around where they're at now, but possibly a bit lower) and let the ammo add significantly more of a boost at the high end. There needs to be room for higher-tiered ammo to provide a significant advantage over lower-tiered ammo.
Bob
Decius
Is the intention that one could fund ammunition using a small fraction of the proceeds from loot? Because I need about 10 attacks or so to dispatch a single level-appropriate monster, and they drop a lot less than 2s on average, even counting salvage at raw material prices.

The intention is that with a reasonably judicious use of ammo, including using some lower-grade ammo for easier enemies and maybe occasionally doing a little stabbing (or at least some non-ammo cantrips/orisons), you'd get more loot value (assuming you sell everything, including recipes) than you'd need to purchase in ammo before heading out. We're also planning to drop some simple +0 ammo along the way, though not enough to stay out indefinitely using found ammo for every shot.

Decius
Would it make sense to treat each item as a quiver, yielding 20 shots each? (Just multiplying the yield and carry capacity by 20 throws off the AH market unless prices lower than 1c can exist.)

Bundling items is a possibility if we have too many single items that have trouble selling at 1c each. Our actual hope is that prices will eventually rise enough that anything selling for 1c will be quickly purchased, if only to resell at a profit.


Bob
Edam
The wizard Mastery feats ( "Cold Mastery"/"Fire Mastery" etc) provide bonus wand/staff attacks you can slot which, whilst somewhat under powered for their level, specifically state in the in-game mouse over they use no ammo.

Will similar "ammo free" attacks be available for bows and focuses ?

Also …
  • will melee (non ranged) attacks on wands, staffs and focuses also use ammo?
  • will heals and buffs consume ammo or will ammo just just be for attacks and debuffs?
  • what about thrown weapons such as the star knife ? Will the star knife need ammo ?
  • my impression is we will be able to use lower tier ammo on our t3 weapons and just slot the T3 ammo when we want the extra power … is that correct ?
  • If so, what about the other way around. Can we slot T3 ammo in a T1 weapon and will that T1 weapon get any benefit from the higher tier ammo ?

Looking a bit more carefully, it appears that aren't orisons (focus attacks) that don't use ammo, but I think that's because clerics are generally expected to carry another weapon. May need to rethink that for clerics with a bow. For more standard archers, I think the assumption is that they'll also have a secondary melee weapon.

Use of ammo doesn't seem to be affected by whether the attack is melee or ranged, or whether or not it's beneficial.

Not really sure what the plan was for thrown weapons. Doesn't look like the ammunition system would be a good fit for those.

You can use lower-tier ammo with higher-tier weapons, but you'll definitely notice the difference.

You may be able to slot higher-tier ammo with lower-tier weapons, but if you do, you'll get no advantage from the higher tier.
Gross
Bob
Looking a bit more carefully, it appears that aren't orisons (focus attacks) that don't use ammo, but I think that's because clerics are generally expected to carry another weapon. May need to rethink that for clerics with a bow.

Indeed, would be good if you did, or if the number of charges is made much larger. From a balance perspective I can't see why there are wizard attacks not needing materials or power and no cleric ones.
Mercenary monster hunter from Forgeholm
War priest of Angradd… patiently waiting on Goblinworks to deliver him (and greataxes, Dwarves need 2 handed axes).
 
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