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Siege Engines and Camps

Duffy Swiftshadow
Smitty
Since this is an attack will we need to have people at these engines to do damage, or is this another job you are tasking to guards? – If Guards are the answer - Please explain why people need to be present to take holdings but do not have to be present to take a settlement…

In order to stop these things from doing damage, what must a defender do? Take over the outpost( camps) and then wait a day to take over a holding ( engine).. then wait another day or 2 in order to destroy them?

Then do this for all 6 core hexes in order to end a siege?

What does an attacker have to do then build them / move them and load up these things with enough resources?
When Will raiding become a thing, in regards to these engines as well as actual Holdings?

At first I was gonna say 'why should the attackers stand around bored too?' then I realized they really should to balance out the whole threatening but not having to show up thing. At least that way both sides are bored and inconvenienced in non-fighting scenarios.

Also it sounds like the defenders just need to take 1 outpost to stop the damage from that hex, so they could just take 1 from each hex to stop all the damage for that day. Which somewhat necessitates defenders to insure siege damage.
Hobson Fiffledown
Just to clarify the "siege from inside" fix you mentioned earlier, is the idea that you, Bob or other GW person, will manually check that each of the 18 siege assets (not to mention all backups and replacements) is made in and transported from the home settlement of any of the participating companies? Or was that a no-go?

All of this, if I remember correctly, was supposed to be a BFD to make and transport, and with the amount of resources needed, it is being presented as a huge crafting endeavor to siege someone. Is there any thought to making it known that a settlement is preparing for large scale war? Or, can 18+ siege items be made and then transported by sneaky, off-hours mule trips for surprise insta-sieges anywhere? I'm asking for a friend… Also, will the items be directly deployed from the crafting point, or can we make them and then sneak a whole bunch of them inside target settlements?
This space for rent.
Bob
Smitty
Since this is an attack will we need to have people at these engines to do damage, or is this another job you are tasking to guards? – If Guards are the answer - Please explain why people need to be present to take holdings but do not have to be present to take a settlement…

Largely this is a logistical problem. The attacks and damage are all going to be done manually. While I can make sure one of us checks each of the hexes at least once a day at appropriate times to figure out what the damage was for each day (with teleporting it won't take long), there's no way we can be on hand every day during various PvP windows to verify character involvement. Perhaps we can get something more involved coded in later, but not for the initial update.

One thing we are doing to help a bit with this is the fact that the Siege Engines can't be auto-supplied from the siege camps, so we do expect companies to want to refresh the supplies occasionally. Plus, they do at least need to show up initially to take out any existing holdings and place the siege equipment. And of course, if the attackers don't show up, then it should be relatively trivial for the defenders to get past the guards and take out the siege equipment.

Smitty
In order to stop these things from doing damage, what must a defender do? Take over the outpost( camps) and then wait a day to take over a holding ( engine).. then wait another day or 2 in order to destroy them?

The full cycle for clearing/taking a hex uses the standard outposts (camps) first, then holdings (engines) system. You can temporarily stop the hex from doing damage just by overrunning a Siege Camp, but the hex will start doing damage again once all the equipment reactivates if the Siege Engine isn't ultimately taken down.

Smitty
Then do this for all 6 core hexes in order to end a siege?

To fully end the siege, yes, all six siege engines would need to be removed. On the other hand, there's a good chance that a siege without the bulk of its equipment active will be doing little or no damage each day, except to the attacker's supply of bulk goods. It all depends on just how powerful the attacker's siege engines are relative to the settlement's defenses. If the attackers arrive with just enough equipment to do reasonable damage to the settlement, then the loss of even a single hex could effectively end the siege until that hex can be retaken. If they arrive with significant excess power, then they can afford more losses.

Smitty
What does an attacker have to do then build them / move them and load up these things with enough resources?

Stockpile some bulk goods, craft the siege equipment, clear the surrounding hexes, place all the siege equipment, load the Siege Engines with bulk goods , defend the siege equipment during PvP windows, and keep the Siege Engines stocked with bulk goods if they're running out.

Smitty
When Will raiding become a thing, in regards to these engines as well as actual Holdings?

Raiding isn't something we can get into this build, but I'm considering giving defenders something each time they destroy some of the siege equipment. For example, I could potentially give the defending settlement a percentage of the ingredients from the destroyed siege equipment. At least that way there'd be some potential for a successful defender to actually profit from the attack, rather than having defenders always feel like the best they can do is minimize the amount of damage taken.
Bob
Hobson Fiffledown
Just to clarify the "siege from inside" fix you mentioned earlier, is the idea that you, Bob or other GW person, will manually check that each of the 18 siege assets (not to mention all backups and replacements) is made in and transported from the home settlement of any of the participating companies? Or was that a no-go?

Yup, I'm still planning to make a manual check that the siege equipment starts at an attacker's home settlement one of the requirements.

Hobson Fiffledown
All of this, if I remember correctly, was supposed to be a BFD to make and transport, and with the amount of resources needed, it is being presented as a huge crafting endeavor to siege someone. Is there any thought to making it known that a settlement is preparing for large scale war? Or, can 18+ siege items be made and then transported by sneaky, off-hours mule trips for surprise insta-sieges anywhere? I'm asking for a friend… Also, will the items be directly deployed from the crafting point, or can we make them and then sneak a whole bunch of them inside target settlements?

At the very least, I want to require a public declaration of war at the time I verify the siege engines are in the attacker's home settlement/s. I'd like to say that the declaration should be made before attacking any surrounding outposts/holdings as well, since that seems only sporting given our current population levels, but that has some issues in being able to tell for sure whether or not a hex attack was part of a siege plan, especially if done by hired mercenaries. Perhaps the best thing would be to just have a temporary policy that all feuds require an advance public declaration before attacking holdings and outposts, at least until we can take a closer look at the related in-game mechanics.
Flari-Merchant
Well it looks like you have thought this stuff through, Bob. Almost everything will be a matter of GW staff physically monitoring and recording, if I am getting a serious sense of things now. Probably not too taxing as this level of PVP will be rare enough for some time. I am sure that you are aware that the human element on the calculation side of things will have to be very consistent and accurate. I know you don't want caterwauling. smile
^^BUT, I can not shirk from admiring this in a way. I have been asking for some "out of the box" development fixes and features that involve GM "hands on" stuff. This is an example, of a type, of what I meant. Not taking credit, just admitting that I was asking for it! lol

Still going to wait for you to put out some numbers on what these siege hexes actually do according to existing engines, camps and strengths. As Hobson has pointed out, this is potentially a BFD and as Duffy has commented, there is not a player base developed economy to properly judge what these settlements are really worth or even to be able to replace them within normal gameplay. Losing an important settlement really will be a BFD. Perhaps at the group breaking level. If it were fairly well laid out how to go about getting a new one and starting over, reasonable gamers would probably be OK with such ebb and flow. I am not at all certain that it IS well laid out in realistic mechanical endeavor fashion however, so a BFD indeed…
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Smitty
Thanks bob - for your response-

But In regards to defending
How will you handle people that want to help defend the settlement that are from other settlements?
From the other thread , it will be possible for 6 different companies from 6 different settlements to siege one location…

As someone who may want to defend a third party settlement, What will be done to open up who can help defend?
Will there be a way for my company to join the defending side at the outset of the siege, something like I am banking __ influence to support the siege defense of ____. Will that allow my company participate in over running camps and engines, and killing the NPC guards without taking 250 rep hit every swing?

Without something like this, how does one defend a settlement they are not a part of?
Fiery
You do what we've always been doing, just company-hop. Or, fight pvpers off while the people you're helping do the capping.
Smitty
Little different .. If the settlement you want to help is AFK… then you have to feud 6 companies to join the fray..

And considering one of the reasons 6 companies from 6 settlements are allowed to join a siege was to reduce company/settlement hopping .. One has to ask .. what are they going to do to reduce company settlement hopping on the defender side ..
Bob
Smitty
Thanks bob - for your response-

But In regards to defending
How will you handle people that want to help defend the settlement that are from other settlements?
From the other thread , it will be possible for 6 different companies from 6 different settlements to siege one location…

As someone who may want to defend a third party settlement, What will be done to open up who can help defend?
Will there be a way for my company to join the defending side at the outset of the siege, something like I am banking __ influence to support the siege defense of ____. Will that allow my company participate in over running camps and engines, and killing the NPC guards without taking 250 rep hit every swing?

Without something like this, how does one defend a settlement they are not a part of?

There's not a lot we can do to improve that issue in this update, probably not until we can improve the alliances system. For now, I'm sure some company hopping will go on. Probably the best thing to do would be to temporarily move your entire company over to the defending settlement, since settlement-mates are automatically included in the feuds during holding/outpost/engine/camp PvP (though not the rest of the time) and the attackers all need to be feuding the settlement's founding company to do damage. You'd want to move any needed war supplies out of your previous settlement's company vault before making the move.

Your other alternative as always is to start your own feud against the attackers, which again automatically brings in all your settlement-mates while attacking the siege engines/camps (though probably not when helping defend the holdings and outposts). During the defensive part, yes, you'd need to feud every possible attacking company, but at least once you get to the siege engine/camp part, you can selectively feud just the ones you're planning on attacking that day.

Not ideal, but hopefully we can improve on it in the future.
Bob
Smitty
Little different .. If the settlement you want to help is AFK… then you have to feud 6 companies to join the fray..

And considering one of the reasons 6 companies from 6 settlements are allowed to join a siege was to reduce company/settlement hopping .. One has to ask .. what are they going to do to reduce company settlement hopping on the defender side ..

If the settlement you want to help is completely out of the game, helping them is going to be tricky. If the settlement is around enough to at least make some advanced mutual defense plans (and hopefully they are since we're moving to requiring that the owner is an active character), I'd suggest considering an arrangement to put some holdings up around the settlement held by allies, so that the defense stage would inherently have to include the allies at some point. You could also put a placeholder company in the settlement led by an allied alt, then company-hop into that company as needed.

Victory favors the prepared.
 
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