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Restricting Output from Outposts to Upgrade Level of Holding

Bob
Decius
Assuming that stuff in the bank is "safe" from raids, but ongoing production less so…

We're thinking about having some of the banked stuff raidable, but the dependable source for raids would be that day's production.

Decius
Is the warden outpost waiting on tech or just art? Can we get them in with duplicate art?

I'm looking into it. Based on a quick preliminary check, it looks like the warden outpost is all set to go, using the trading post art, and just needs to be added to the recipe drop list. However, I want to do some testing on it before promising anything.
Bob
Azure_Zero
Wow, you just made it expensive to claim more hexes with the lower end by a lot

That I did, though claiming new hexes is still a more influence-efficient way to increase your total productivity than upgrading is. It's also more efficient in that claiming new hexes at +0 never requires more than one bulk resource for upkeep, allowing you to focus purely on the most efficient production of that resource while remaining self-sufficient.

Azure_Zero
And you made Inns No longer usable in forest hexes, since the best an Inn can generate in a forest is less then 11 food.

Unless I'm missing something, I would think Inns would be relatively easy to operate there. Assuming the hex has 600 game, two Hunting Outposts should produce 14-15 bulk food, in addition to 14-15 trade goods. Since trade goods are the second resource required, you should be good all the way up to +4. Some wouldn't have the full 600 game and therefore wouldn't produce quite as much, but I think most would produce the needed amount. Oddly, it may be possible that some hexes wouldn't produce enough food to be self-sufficient at +0, but then because the need for the first resource rises more slowly as the second resource is added, would actually become self-sufficient at +1. Just one of the oddities for hexes that don't have as many resources at higher concentrations.


Edam
Bob
Azure_Zero
Wow, you just made it expensive to claim more hexes with the lower end by a lot

That I did, though claiming new hexes is still a more influence-efficient way to increase your total productivity than upgrading is. It's also more efficient in that claiming new hexes at +0 never requires more than one bulk resource for upkeep, allowing you to focus purely on the most efficient production of that resource while remaining self-sufficient.

Azure_Zero
And you made Inns No longer usable in forest hexes, since the best an Inn can generate in a forest is less then 11 food.

Unless I'm missing something, I would think Inns would be relatively easy to operate there. Assuming the hex has 600 game, two Hunting Outposts should produce 14-15 bulk food, in addition to 14-15 trade goods. Since trade goods are the second resource required, you should be good all the way up to +4. Some wouldn't have the full 600 game and therefore wouldn't produce quite as much, but I think most would produce the needed amount. Oddly, it may be possible that some hexes wouldn't produce enough food to be self-sufficient at +0, but then because the need for the first resource rises more slowly as the second resource is added, would actually become self-sufficient at +1. Just one of the oddities for hexes that don't have as many resources at higher concentrations.
Wandering around Golarion at present is a bit like a walking tour of rural England with inns every few miles. Reducing the propensity to always put up an inn is to my mind a good thing.
Bob
Edam
Wandering around Golarion at present is a bit like a walking tour of rural England with inns every few miles. Reducing the propensity to always put up an inn is to my mind a good thing.

Hopefully the need to increase production efficiency will help with that.
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

The costs I posted do allow for one-outpost setups that allow the use of secondary or tertiary resource of the hex.
The Eternal Balance
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

Isn't this what Trade is for? Perhaps this would help us do more of that.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
Azure_Zero
The Eternal Balance
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

Isn't this what Trade is for? Perhaps this would help us do more of that.

Not Everyone wants to trade, and then add the possibly that one group holds one resource damn well and use it to leverage better deals for themselves.
I don't want to be held hostage to a resource like high quality cheap black gold is for the developed nations of the world.
Bob
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

The costs I posted do allow for one-outpost setups that allow the use of secondary or tertiary resource of the hex.

It's difficult to balance for one-outpost setups with the current production model without making the second outpost overly advantageous. That's because currently the second outpost is just as productive as the first one, while the holding upkeep is the same whether you have one or two outposts. There are other changes we could make that would help with that, in particular calculating effort based in part on character contributions instead of just giving each outpost a default effort level, but those will take time to get to. For now, the best I can do is fiddle with the numbers to make the initial outpost usually enough to be self-sufficient, but not making the more typical two-outpost setup overly productive.

My general thinking on it is that for now you are generally better off adding a second outpost before claiming additional hexes or upgrading the hex. The second outpost doesn't add to your upkeep cost, uses less influence than building another holding or upgrading the holding and first outpost, and likely increases overall production even if applied to secondary (or semi-abundant tertiary) resources more than upgrading the single-outpost hex would. There might be exceptions where you have access to multiple hexes with different primary resources, so claiming each one with a single outpost might give you a better combination of mixed output and territorial footprint. At least you'll wind up with a variety of resources in such a case, and in those cases you're well-positioned to ramp up production as soon as you can start placing second outposts that also target the same primary resources.
Fiery
Azure_Zero
The Eternal Balance
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

Isn't this what Trade is for? Perhaps this would help us do more of that.

Not Everyone wants to trade, and then add the possibly that one group holds one resource damn well and use it to leverage better deals for themselves.
I don't want to be held hostage to a resource like high quality cheap black gold is for the developed nations of the world.

Sorry, but that's kind of how territory games work. If there's good territory, people fight over it. If you don't want to trade, well…that's your choice. Not something to be balanced around.
Midnight
Fiery
Azure_Zero
The Eternal Balance
Azure_Zero
I think the holding changes you want bob would hurt new comers.
As one-outpost setups do need to be possible with the secondary or tertiary resource, and not everyone wants to be flooded with one freaking resource.

Isn't this what Trade is for? Perhaps this would help us do more of that.

Not Everyone wants to trade, and then add the possibly that one group holds one resource damn well and use it to leverage better deals for themselves.
I don't want to be held hostage to a resource like high quality cheap black gold is for the developed nations of the world.

Sorry, but that's kind of how territory games work. If there's good territory, people fight over it. If you don't want to trade, well…that's your choice. Not something to be balanced around.

One can argue that (in a game) we should avoid geographic monopolies, but that cartel monopolies (or near monopolies) are a proper result of politics.

For game design, I'd suggest more balance in what is valuable, too, compared to the real world. In the real world, energy has always been an incredible force multiplier in both war and civilian economies. A game *might* not want to reproduce that kind of imbalance in the value of its various resources.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
 
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