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Why Are All "Sandboxy PVP Included" MMOs not meeting expectations, excecpt(MAYBE) one?

Flari-Merchant
It's a good post, Radish.

As far as I can tell, we agree on everything except excluding PVP from this sandbox. There are plenty of "Builders" that are willing to play in a game that includes what their version of "meaningful" PVP is(look at me), but will not play in this one because they do not consider random PVP to be "meaningful PVP"(not my personal take on PVP). Now if their "area of control" or territories could be safeguarded against random PVP, I feel that a larger slice of anti PVP players might be persuaded to try it and even come to like PfO. That sort of thing(if it came about) would have to be pretty clearly communicated, but if it was and they could grasp it beyond the plain "there is PVP in this game I'm looking at" It might be a winner.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Flari-Merchant
One thing that has not been tried is allowing some control over what kind of PVP that PLAYERS ALLOW(through mechanical options rather than physical) in the areas that they control. These game designers have been trying and trying to get a fantasy sandbox off the ground and still ALL of them make the same decision to have flat PVP rules. Most expect the Anti Random PVP Enthusiasts to step up and make areas safe for their people. Well that doesn't work. At least not for very long.

Edit: At least, as Lisa pointed out, PfO is taking a step toward this. How big and how that will play out? Still very much looking forward to details.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Duffy Swiftshadow
Bringslite of Staalgard
One thing that has not been tried is allowing some control over what kind of PVP that PLAYERS ALLOW(through mechanical options rather than physical) in the areas that they control. These game designers have been trying and trying to get a fantasy sandbox off the ground and still ALL of them make the same decision to have flat PVP rules. Most expect the Anti Random PVP Enthusiasts to step up and make areas safe for their people. Well that doesn't work. At least not for very long.

Edit: At least, as Lisa pointed out, PfO is taking a step toward this. How big and how that will play out? Still very much looking forward to details.

I am intrigued about the idea of using a carefully regulated PvP mechanic (territory feud fighting) to determine who controls a hex which grants the owner control over more general day to day PvP rules in said hex. That can be potentially very interesting. I've long been a proponent of more mechanical interaction in sandboxes controlling this sort of thing then trying to rely on social contracts to do so.
Flari-Merchant
Well, depending on how far or how much GW went with it, it could very well be a type of unique "feature" for their niche market that they are pursuing. Staying within reason and not getting so "niche" that you "niche" yourself totally out of ANY market is important lol, but having a few things that are "good things" which others don't have… Good Stuff.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Midnight
I'm amused that some folks think the problem is with PvP. I can only name one profitable sandbox MMO, and that's Eve Online.

Does anyone want to list the profitable sandbox MMOs that I'm missing?
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Decius
Rust (not actually an MMO)
SWG (died because of executive error)
Darkfall, Albion Online (not really sandboxes, just PvP arenas with territory 'control' systems.
Pathfinder Online
Ultima Online
Flari-Merchant
Midnight
I'm amused that some folks think the problem is with PvP. I can only name one profitable sandbox MMO, and that's Eve Online.

Does anyone want to list the profitable sandbox MMOs that I'm missing?
I feel like the problem INCLUDES PVP systems. Or rather the PVP systems are part of the problem… Though I had not considered SWG and had not played it.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I never played SWG but always heard it was good.

UO is a classic, and people still make private aervers even though the game has officially been shut down for a long time. Albion Online follows in the same vein and is a pretty stable game.

If we are gonna include non MMO PvP sandboxes may as well toss in Ark too since it is the same genre as Rust. Like I said earlier there are markets for these kinds of games.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Flari-Merchant
So would you guys claim that "success" for hard core PVP games goes to those that cater fully to PVP enthusiasts, with minor population exceptions, and that limited player servers are also part of that?

Not really what I was talking about, but they do refute my claims that almost ALL are struggling. Albion Online isn't technically out yet. I have no idea about Rust. That one seems like a jazzed up FPS to me…
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite of Staalgard
Midnight
I'm amused that some folks think the problem is with PvP. I can only name one profitable sandbox MMO, and that's Eve Online.

Does anyone want to list the profitable sandbox MMOs that I'm missing?
I feel like the problem INCLUDES PVP systems. Or rather the PVP systems are part of the problem… Though I had not considered SWG and had not played it.

I disagree. It depends on several things:

1) How well the combat in PvP is implemented
2) Setting expectations on what kind of PvP should players expect
3) Having the mechanics line up with those expectations

For example, a faction vs faction type PvP game has clear expectations. You fight alongside yours, you kill all of the other ones, and ya have good mechanics to make the fights fun and fair. Any PvP game that can do these three things will be good to go.

One criticism I have of certain posts in the thread arguing PvP in games is a problem in of itself is that they have mostly been strawman arguments. They have been based on stereotypes of both PvPers and non PvPers alike (mainly all PvPers are toxic wolves and all non PvPers are victims and sheep). The arguments have also been made based on one specific type of PvP system (basically the hardcore full loot gank fest free for all) while ignoring the variety of others that exist. These over generalizations are not helpful. I will also say, coming back to expectations, that if the expectations of PvP are clearly communicated and the mechanics are implemented to make then a reality, then frankly players should know what to expect going in. I don't always like what happens to me and I have definitely got salty about things at times and that's understandable, but I know what I am getting into when I do something in this or any other sandbox.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
 
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