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Mage Tanks

Mistwalker
Ah, but in the tabletop game, I have had more than one arcane caster rush into melee and do well doing so, with touch spells. One that I am currently playing has a higher AC than the bard, rogue and paladin, which when combined with mirror image makes him a very hard target, and when he get's low on HP, he can always cast "Vampiric Touch" to regain some health. So mages can tank in table top.

I am unsure why you are so opposed to the idea of mages that can tank.
Nihimon, Fiery and Nijah's tests show that a tanking mage is about middle of the road (takes clerics, loses to rogues and is tied with fighters). So where exactly is the problem?
MidniteArrow
Nijah loves mage tanks. Really, it's a great tactic. You should all do it. There's absolutely no reason not to. In fact, if you don't have a mage tank, you should delete your character and make one. To beat Nijah. Cause really. It will work. I swear.
Drakis [Arrodima] [Default Speaker] [PvE Soldier, Empyrean Legion ]
Nijah [Arrodima] [Leader, The Argent Defenders, PvE]
Jinh [Arrodima] [Leader, The Concordian Council]
Duffy Swiftshadow
Mistwalker
Ah, but in the tabletop game, I have had more than one arcane caster rush into melee and do well doing so, with touch spells. One that I am currently playing has a higher AC than the bard, rogue and paladin, which when combined with mirror image makes him a very hard target, and when he get's low on HP, he can always cast "Vampiric Touch" to regain some health. So mages can tank in table top.

I am unsure why you are so opposed to the idea of mages that can tank.
Nihimon, Fiery and Nijah's tests show that a tanking mage is about middle of the road (takes clerics, loses to rogues and is tied with fighters). So where exactly is the problem?

It's probably because it's the only character build that can actually "tank" in the game and it feels very wrong compared to everything else because of that. PFO is not currently setup like a traditional trinity style game with healer, dps, and tanks. Healing is severely limited such that any particular battle is more about attrition and avoiding taking damage you don't have to than executing any sort of complex strategy. Tactics boils down to outlast ranged mobs via focused DPS and occasional resets if things get dicey while kiting melee until you're ready to deal with them. Some healing abilities and potions are sprinkled throughout, but are mainly reserved for mistakes or buffering as you can usually only get big healing once a fight unless you're running mostly clerics with healing expendables.

An ideal challenging PFO fight is an HP attrition fight with limited healing, thus a build that circumvents that by being able to tank a single appropriate level mob indefinitely feels very off when it has no comparable options for other classes. (Yes we cheese this by resetting and kiting a lot, or even chugging bloodblocks if you are so inclined, which is partially mitigated by the devs adding bigger and bigger packs of mobs to escalations. This odd little arms race is killing PvE in this game, the better you get and the higher tiers you start engaging the more repetitive and tedious it all gets. You have to drag me into an escalation, I can't take the boredom anymore.)

The real complaint should be that it is the only real sustained tanking option in the game. Maybe it's ultimately fine if there were more caveats to it working or it wasn't infinitely sustainable against most targets, but it feels like it's the only build that gets that cool and defining a capability like that.
Decius
Healer armor and constant regenerating come real close to DC in terms of being able to stay in a fight. I've seen counters to each that reliably work.
Duffy Swiftshadow
That is true, Healer weaving Virtue and Minor Cure can be pretty tanky too and while maybe slower time to kill than Devourer builds, it is also easier to survive as you can start kiting as Healer if you suddenly need the breathing room before going back at it.
Fiery
The thing is, you don't have to rush into melee range with a DC build. Don't take the results of our testing as an accurate indication of how things should shake out - mages in general *should* be at a disadvantage in 1v1, when in reality their greatest strength is their crippling abilities at range. DC gives them further options in melee range, offensively or defensively, than I believe they should have.
Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?
Mistwalker
I could see reactivating/putting back in place the cantrips that were only available if you learned the right school feature. And to raise the cantrip, you had to raise the feature (I think a level 6 cantrip required a level 8 feature).

Mage's Resistance was only available to Abjurers
Put Devourer's Caress as the necromantic one, and you may limit the number of folks who use it (that meaningful choice thing again).

Another option that has been thrown out in voice comms is to link the healing to a percentage of the damage being dealt, not the HP total of the caster. This would have an impact, as I do not always to maximum damage (but currently always get 7% of my HP total back). It would have the added benefit of not allowing Devourer's Caress to heal a mage off of undead.
Mistwalker
Fiery
mages in general *should* be at a disadvantage in 1v1

Why?

In table top, my arcanist has a higher AC than the fighter and the bard. Add in mirror image, vampiric touch, intensified shocking grasp, etc… and a mage can definately hold their own if not dominate the fight (as long as their spells hold out).
Demiurge
Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?

jeez guys …

It is not the cloth wearing mages using Devourers Caress that are the problem. They are still vulnerable and weak and have limited DPS. The real question here is do we want to nerf DC for mages when the real issue in the current game is certain other multi-role builds that capitalise on it far more than a pure mage ever can.
 
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