Mage Tanks

Mistwalker 05.23.2017 19:25
	Duffy Swiftshadow An ideal challenging PFO fight is an HP attrition fight with limited healing, thus a build that circumvents that by being able to tank a single appropriate level mob indefinitely feels very off when it has no comparable options for other classes. Yet rogues can easily bleed out a single appropriate level mob faster than a mage, fighter or cleric can kill them. The rogue can even kit them a bit, waiting to drop combat and heal up, with their target bleeds while chasing. I am not seeing a real difference here in outcomes - mob dead, PC going on to the next fight. Quote

Mistwalker 05.23.2017 19:25

Duffy Swiftshadow
An ideal challenging PFO fight is an HP attrition fight with limited healing, thus a build that circumvents that by being able to tank a single appropriate level mob indefinitely feels very off when it has no comparable options for other classes.

Yet rogues can easily bleed out a single appropriate level mob faster than a mage, fighter or cleric can kill them. The rogue can even kit them a bit, waiting to drop combat and heal up, with their target bleeds while chasing.
I am not seeing a real difference here in outcomes - mob dead, PC going on to the next fight.

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Fiery 05.23.2017 19:29
	Mistwalker Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)? I don't play a wizard on live, though I've started experimenting with them on the test server. I'm not sure if the implication is inexperience with the role, or personal interest, but I also think there are severely imbalanced things a rogue can do that need to be addressed, and I play a rogue as one of my two combat characters. Quote

Fiery 05.23.2017 19:29

Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?

I don't play a wizard on live, though I've started experimenting with them on the test server. I'm not sure if the implication is inexperience with the role, or personal interest, but I also think there are severely imbalanced things a rogue can do that need to be addressed, and I play a rogue as one of my two combat characters.

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Decius 05.23.2017 19:51
	Mistwalker Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)? My character is technically more freeholder than wizard, but I use it and it should be moderately nerfed. Quote

Decius 05.23.2017 19:56
	Demiurge Mistwalker Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)? jeez guys … It is not the cloth wearing mages using Devourers Caress that are the problem. They are still vulnerable and weak and have limited DPS. The real question here is do we want to nerf DC for mages when the real issue in the current game is certain other multi-role builds that capitalise on it far more than a pure mage ever can. What build do you think could use DC far more? Heavier armor is right out, so reactives and role features? Sure, with two characters worth of XP you could do rogue-level stacks, but wizard reactives can stack too. Quote

Decius 05.23.2017 19:56

Demiurge
Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?

jeez guys …

It is not the cloth wearing mages using Devourers Caress that are the problem. They are still vulnerable and weak and have limited DPS. The real question here is do we want to nerf DC for mages when the real issue in the current game is certain other multi-role builds that capitalise on it far more than a pure mage ever can.

What build do you think could use DC far more? Heavier armor is right out, so reactives and role features?

Sure, with two characters worth of XP you could do rogue-level stacks, but wizard reactives can stack too.

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Decius 05.23.2017 19:57
	Fiery Mistwalker Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)? I don't play a wizard on live, though I've started experimenting with them on the test server. I'm not sure if the implication is inexperience with the role, or personal interest, but I also think there are severely imbalanced things a rogue can do that need to be addressed, and I play a rogue as one of my two combat characters. I'll start doing a focused search for what a fighter can do that's horribly broken. Quote

Decius 05.23.2017 19:57

Fiery
Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?
I don't play a wizard on live, though I've started experimenting with them on the test server. I'm not sure if the implication is inexperience with the role, or personal interest, but I also think there are severely imbalanced things a rogue can do that need to be addressed, and I play a rogue as one of my two combat characters.

I'll start doing a focused search for what a fighter can do that's horribly broken.

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Aglos 05.23.2017 19:57
	My main character is a Wizard and D.C. needs to be nerfed. It is the Cheese-Wiz of PFO. Quote

Duffy Swiftshadow 05.23.2017 20:01
	Mistwalker Duffy Swiftshadow An ideal challenging PFO fight is an HP attrition fight with limited healing, thus a build that circumvents that by being able to tank a single appropriate level mob indefinitely feels very off when it has no comparable options for other classes. Yet rogues can easily bleed out a single appropriate level mob faster than a mage, fighter or cleric can kill them. The rogue can even kit them a bit, waiting to drop combat and heal up, with their target bleeds while chasing. I am not seeing a real difference here in outcomes - mob dead, PC going on to the next fight. That is literally describing the cheese tactics of kiting and dropping aggro to exploit the limited AI and circumvent cooldowns and designed per combat limitations, that is also bad and should be fixed. I think exploiting limited AI's is far worse than infinite sustain tanking and wish it wasn't a thing as it trivializes PvE and forces 'difficulty' to be increased via adding more and more mobs to encounters to try an find the overwhelming point which turns already boring PvE content into even more of a grindy slog. When I say an ideal fight I mean everyone is engaged and taking damage while expending limited resources trying to kill their opponents. Much like a TT encounter usually goes. Resetting or avoiding damage by kiting everything circumvents that encounter balance and creates unrewarding mechanics focuses on exploiting loopholes and limited capabilities. Just for some personal context: I'll raid every night and lose (like no gains per night of losing) 6 out of 7 nights a week in your typical WoW themepark game trying to perfect execution on an encounter and pull off the win. But I will do everything in my power to avoid spending an evening doing a PFO escalation even though I will not die and I will get 'good' loot at the end. That where I stand on PvE content, PFO is ridiculously lacking and many of the things we're discussing are some of the reasons for it. And yes Evelyn Darkheart is my Necro mage who utilizes this combo to solo high T2 mobs in barely T2 gear. I have no fear of mobs that I would avoid going toe to toe with on Duffy, unless of course I was cheese kiting them to death. Hope's End (Aeonian League) vox.silentii.pfo@gmail.com, Paizo PM PFO Nexus Discord Quote

Duffy Swiftshadow 05.23.2017 20:01

Mistwalker
Duffy Swiftshadow
An ideal challenging PFO fight is an HP attrition fight with limited healing, thus a build that circumvents that by being able to tank a single appropriate level mob indefinitely feels very off when it has no comparable options for other classes.

Yet rogues can easily bleed out a single appropriate level mob faster than a mage, fighter or cleric can kill them. The rogue can even kit them a bit, waiting to drop combat and heal up, with their target bleeds while chasing.
I am not seeing a real difference here in outcomes - mob dead, PC going on to the next fight.

That is literally describing the cheese tactics of kiting and dropping aggro to exploit the limited AI and circumvent cooldowns and designed per combat limitations, that is also bad and should be fixed. I think exploiting limited AI's is far worse than infinite sustain tanking and wish it wasn't a thing as it trivializes PvE and forces 'difficulty' to be increased via adding more and more mobs to encounters to try an find the overwhelming point which turns already boring PvE content into even more of a grindy slog.

When I say an ideal fight I mean everyone is engaged and taking damage while expending limited resources trying to kill their opponents. Much like a TT encounter usually goes. Resetting or avoiding damage by kiting everything circumvents that encounter balance and creates unrewarding mechanics focuses on exploiting loopholes and limited capabilities.

Just for some personal context: I'll raid every night and lose (like no gains per night of losing) 6 out of 7 nights a week in your typical WoW themepark game trying to perfect execution on an encounter and pull off the win. But I will do everything in my power to avoid spending an evening doing a PFO escalation even though I will not die and I will get 'good' loot at the end. That where I stand on PvE content, PFO is ridiculously lacking and many of the things we're discussing are some of the reasons for it.

And yes Evelyn Darkheart is my Necro mage who utilizes this combo to solo high T2 mobs in barely T2 gear. I have no fear of mobs that I would avoid going toe to toe with on Duffy, unless of course I was cheese kiting them to death.

Hope's End (Aeonian League)
vox.silentii.pfo@gmail.com, Paizo PM
PFO Nexus Discord

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Lisa Stevens 05.23.2017 20:14
	Duffy Swiftshadow Just for some personal context: I'll raid every night and lose (like no gains per night of losing) 6 out of 7 nights a week in your typical WoW themepark game trying to perfect execution on an encounter and pull off the win. But I will do everything in my power to avoid spending an evening doing a PFO escalation even though I will not die and I will get 'good' loot at the end. That where I stand on PvE content, PFO is ridiculously lacking and many of the things we're discussing are some of the reasons for it. It will be very interesting to see if you think that PVE is so easy after this next build. The AI should be a little more unpredictable and every battle a bit more challenging. Quote

Lisa Stevens 05.23.2017 20:14

Duffy Swiftshadow
Just for some personal context: I'll raid every night and lose (like no gains per night of losing) 6 out of 7 nights a week in your typical WoW themepark game trying to perfect execution on an encounter and pull off the win. But I will do everything in my power to avoid spending an evening doing a PFO escalation even though I will not die and I will get 'good' loot at the end. That where I stand on PvE content, PFO is ridiculously lacking and many of the things we're discussing are some of the reasons for it.

It will be very interesting to see if you think that PVE is so easy after this next build. The AI should be a little more unpredictable and every battle a bit more challenging.

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Edam 05.23.2017 20:43
	Decius Demiurge Mistwalker Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)? jeez guys … It is not the cloth wearing mages using Devourers Caress that are the problem. They are still vulnerable and weak and have limited DPS. The real question here is do we want to nerf DC for mages when the real issue in the current game is certain other multi-role builds that capitalise on it far more than a pure mage ever can. What build do you think could use DC far more? Heavier armor is right out, so reactives and role features? Sure, with two characters worth of XP you could do rogue-level stacks, but wizard reactives can stack too. Edam has at times run as a sanctified cleric with wand when he does not need to use his holy symbols. You need to drop back to light armor for it to work, you lose all keywords on your holy symbols and also Edam cannot use a T3 wand which severely limits the stacks. It is also hard to keep favored up when the best ways of getting it are on the holy symbols that no longer work. That said a T3 wand using sanctified cleric wearing something like Wright armor at 13 would probably be a viable combo. Overpowered? Not so sure - it is a meaningful choice but you loose your big heals and buffs as your symbols have no keywords. I would say an interesting alt build for a cleric rather than overpowered. Quote

Edam 05.23.2017 20:43

Decius
Demiurge
Mistwalker
Out of curiosity, how many of those saying that Devrourer's Caress should be nerfed are mages (besides Nihimon)?

jeez guys …

It is not the cloth wearing mages using Devourers Caress that are the problem. They are still vulnerable and weak and have limited DPS. The real question here is do we want to nerf DC for mages when the real issue in the current game is certain other multi-role builds that capitalise on it far more than a pure mage ever can.

What build do you think could use DC far more? Heavier armor is right out, so reactives and role features?

Sure, with two characters worth of XP you could do rogue-level stacks, but wizard reactives can stack too.

Edam has at times run as a sanctified cleric with wand when he does not need to use his holy symbols. You need to drop back to light armor for it to work, you lose all keywords on your holy symbols and also Edam cannot use a T3 wand which severely limits the stacks. It is also hard to keep favored up when the best ways of getting it are on the holy symbols that no longer work. That said a T3 wand using sanctified cleric wearing something like Wright armor at 13 would probably be a viable combo. Overpowered? Not so sure - it is a meaningful choice but you loose your big heals and buffs as your symbols have no keywords. I would say an interesting alt build for a cleric rather than overpowered.

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Flari-Merchant 05.23.2017 21:56
	It didn't serve the good of the game to ultra-nerf the Longbow. From what has been thrown back and forth here, I am now of the opinion that nerfing the DC combo thingy won't serve the game well either. The player pop is very low. Save decisions like this for when you can get exponentially more amounts of data from different users of it. Quote

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