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Is PvP still verboten in Thornkeep?

Decius
Eve Online had lots of drama and needed security for lots of things, but there wasn't even grudges against characters. Active members of a defeated alliance were typically sought out by the victorious one, especially if they demonstrated individual competence.

I don't trust any player to be able to fairly play characters who are on opposite sides of a conflict, but I trust most players (within reason) if they change sides.
Duffy Swiftshadow
So I originally didn't have any concern about this at the time, but another thread just made me pause: how do we 'deal' with something like say an unassociated character that is 'scamming' (not breaking TOS) and never leaves TK? We can't feud them and we can't attack them. Not to mention it would be a suicide gank even if you could. Thus they are impervious to social controls.

There may be some other creative reasons besides 'scamming' in the future, it's just the one that got me thinking.
Bob
For the moment, we'll continue with a general policy that players shouldn't PvP in Thornkeep, but we'll revisit the issue as we polish up the Opt-In PvP features and if problems start cropping up with the policy (particularly if people start behaving aggressively then running to Thornkeep to avoid the consequences). Long-run, the goal isn't to have Thornkeep be a perfect area of safety that one can always run to, at least not without accepting some limitations for receiving that protection (lack of support, limited gathering, etc…smile, but I don't think we're quite ready to open that up yet given how hard it is to play the game without at least being in a company. I'll also look into just plain blocking PvP in certain hexes so that it's more of a mechanic than a policy.
Bob
Also, to simplify my previous statement about "scamming":

Tricking new/newer players who likely haven't had a chance to learn the game's risks would be considered taking advantage of a "bug" (in this case the "bug" of the game not yet adequately educating new players of those risks) and therefore violates the TOS.

Tricking anyone by taking advantage of "bugs" (including, but not limited to, incomplete systems or limitations of the current UI) pretty obviously counts as taking advantage of a bug and therefore violates the TOS.

Tricking experienced players (without taking advantage of bugs and such) is part of the competitive nature of the game, though doing so should open you to various in-game consequences, ranging from revenge killings to limited facility access to lacking support to being stuck staying near Thornkeep. If we find that certain game mechanics are providing too much protection from those consequences, we'll look at limiting those protections further.
Hobson Fiffledown
So, say Character 1 drops some honeypot chats in general about the location of a gusher. Character 2 stomps out to go harvest said honeypot and gets quickly attacked, killed, and looted by Character 1. Is that fair play or a violation of the ToS? Who decides what "haven't had a chance to learn the game" means? What is tricking? How would an ambush-style attacker tell the difference between a beginning player's character and an experienced player's 1k alt?

Would the planned release in November of the core rulebook mark the end of this policy?
This space for rent.
Flari-Merchant
Hobson Fiffledown
So, say Character 1 drops some honeypot chats in general about the location of a gusher. Character 2 stomps out to go harvest said honeypot and gets quickly attacked, killed, and looted by Character 1. Is that fair play or a violation of the ToS? Who decides what "haven't had a chance to learn the game" means? What is tricking? How would an ambush-style attacker tell the difference between a beginning player's character and an experienced player's 1k alt?

Would the planned release in November of the core rulebook mark the end of this policy?
So looking at your scenario, I would bet the GW answer is… "Tough World, Tough Luck" You have a situation here were an individual is either dorfing out loud in chat or faking a dorf. Either way, if you are trying to get out there and take it from him, you have naughty intent. If he is calling for help… well be sure that you know someone at least a little before being lured out to aid them. In that case, you shouldn't be running to help if you are very new. You would likely not be very affective anyway.
Bob
Hobson Fiffledown
So, say Character 1 drops some honeypot chats in general about the location of a gusher. Character 2 stomps out to go harvest said honeypot and gets quickly attacked, killed, and looted by Character 1. Is that fair play or a violation of the ToS?

In general, that would be fair play. However, if the victim had just posted "What are gushers?" or had recently done anything else to make clear they hadn't been made aware of the risks, then not so much.

Hobson Fiffledown
Who decides what "haven't had a chance to learn the game" means?

Paizo does, which basically means I do. It's admittedly a flexible concept, but anyone still hanging around Thornkeep and asking a lot of questions would qualify. Anyone gathering in a distant monster hex or fighting off tough monsters on their own generally wouldn't.

Hobson Fiffledown
What is tricking?

Your example above is a pretty classic variation. In general, it would be deceiving someone into doing (or not doing) something. That said, don't get too bogged down in semantics, as there are certainly things we'd consider clear cases of trickery that might not technically meet that specific definition. For the most part, you should recognize trickery when you see it (or consider doing it).

Hobson Fiffledown
How would an ambush-style attacker tell the difference between a beginning player's character and an experienced player's 1k alt?

Err on the side of caution. In particular, don't set up an ambush for people near Thornkeep, as that would increase the odds of catching less experienced players.

Hobson Fiffledown
Would the planned release in November of the core rulebook mark the end of this policy?

Not all on its own. In particular, that will be outside the game, and it will still be quite possible for someone to just download the game and start playing. The important thing will be for us to feel comfortable that any player under those circumstances gets adequate messaging to be careful of other players before other players can take advantage of them. Things like the warning messages when first entering a lower-security hex are a first step in that direction, but we'll need more in-game messaging before that's really adequate.
Midnight
Bob, I think it's fair to consider whether the trickery comes from a low xp alt, also.

Low xp alts are disposable, and thus the victim and the community don't have as much social leverage against the offender as they would have against trickery from Midnight, for example.

Of course, with multiple accounts and DTs, players can still lay low with high xp characters… so that's a consideration, too.
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
Hobson Fiffledown
TL;DR'd myself pre-post (…I should do that more often)

I think this is a fine policy for the current player base and apparent growth rate, but it could get very complicated with a boom in the player population.

(I mean, say something happens and a hundred or so new, full-time players show up to see whats up.)
This space for rent.
Midnight
"Hey, there's a gusher here! But only for experienced players."

smile
He who wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper.
-Edmund Burke
 
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