Cookies Disclaimer

I agree Our site saves small pieces of text information (cookies) on your device in order to authenticate logins, deliver better content and provide statistical analysis. You can adjust your browser settings to prevent our site from using cookies, but doing so will prevent some aspects of the site from functioning properly.

Before the Tens of Thousands.

Duffy Swiftshadow
I think we can definitely agree the gap is probably far too big, we're not talking the more expected 5-10% difference between steps. And even if you max out your weapon you're still a keyword behind a maxed out armor which I think comes to about an 8% reduction? (This issue only occurs at T3) Or is that extra keyword armors get considered a 'bug'?
Flari-Merchant
Considering both the cost and crafting time for T3 armor, compared to T2 not to mention the extra training and that it is end game stuff, you do need it to be a somewhat significant boost over T2. It does lose viability if it is just a small jump. Don't nerf it too much.

Also consider that it would have to probably readjust for PVE balance as well. All things to think about carefully or the work will get far out of proportion to the goal.

Edit: Not trying to back away or be contradictory to my dislike of the epow/epro system. Just don't want an "overnerf" situation that you most often see in most adjustments. Ranged attack nerfing might be a good example.
Stilachio Thrax
Its threads like this that really, really make me wish they could more closely follow TT rules for armor and weapons. I think they have dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Duffy Swiftshadow
Stilachio Thrax
Its threads like this that really, really make me wish they could more closely follow TT rules for armor and weapons. I think they have dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

I'm not sure it would help, the TT rules for AC and Attack Bonus are generally considered to start breaking down around level 12. What do you mean by that?
Bob
EPow/EPro's job is really just to to make the secondary effects on an attack have roughly the same progression ramp as damage does. Where it doesn't quite pull that job off, we'll certainly look at making adjustments to that. For Beneficial attacks, that largely means ignoring EPro for much the same reasons that Beneficial attacks don't generally get affected by resistances and don't check for partial success or crits. For non-Beneficial attacks, that will eventually mean changes that make it look more specifically at the the nature of the attack and defenses involved, rather than just using generalized levels of power and protection, to better match the way damage types and resistances affect the damage progression.

For issues that are more about the way the progression ramp looks, particularly as characters jump from T2 to T3, we'd want to look at the progression ramp overall, for damage, resistance, effects and everything, then adjust EPow/EPro in line with changes to the rest of the system.
Flari-Merchant
Duffy Swiftshadow
Stilachio Thrax
Its threads like this that really, really make me wish they could more closely follow TT rules for armor and weapons. I think they have dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

I'm not sure it would help, the TT rules for AC and Attack Bonus are generally considered to start breaking down around level 12. What do you mean by that?
Can't speak for The Pistachio but I am guessing that he means a more generally progressive system that, overall, performs better and is more intuitive than what we have.

Some more "similarity" to how TT rules work might be familiar enough to keep more TT players as well, IMO. That's just opinion however, I know that would require quite the overhaul that is pretty much impossible now, also as he suggests. I doubt Paizo is realistically interested in doing that much work over the next year. It was pointed out that they recognize PfO will be a sort of "specialist niche" game. If they can get several thousands to like the game enough to sub out of the ToTs maybe that will be enough to get a foothold established for more major works.
Duffy Swiftshadow
I guess I'm a bit confused because attacks work almost exactly like TT.

You roll a die, you add your BAB, you add your Weapon Specific Bonus, Misc Bonuses like Precision or Buffs (stand in for feat bonuses, enchantment bonuses, situational bonuses, etc… ) and compare that against a target number which is made up of a base value and bonuses applied via gear and training. In fact, I would say PFO is far more linear that tabletop AC is as that is capped for the most part (some classes can get around it). The best you can often do isn't much different than your starting AC plus eventually access to magic item version, whereas BAB scales every level and has far more ways to add numbers to it.

Epow/Epro is weird, but it only applies to effects so that doesn't impact direct damage capabilities.
You are a Troll
Bob
EPow/EPro's job is really just to to make the secondary effects on an attack have roughly the same progression ramp as damage does. Where it doesn't quite pull that job off, we'll certainly look at making adjustments to that. For Beneficial attacks, that largely means ignoring EPro for much the same reasons that Beneficial attacks don't generally get affected by resistances and don't check for partial success or crits. For non-Beneficial attacks, that will eventually mean changes that make it look more specifically at the the nature of the attack and defenses involved, rather than just using generalized levels of power and protection, to better match the way damage types and resistances affect the damage progression.

For issues that are more about the way the progression ramp looks, particularly as characters jump from T2 to T3, we'd want to look at the progression ramp overall, for damage, resistance, effects and everything, then adjust EPow/EPro in line with changes to the rest of the system.

Would be great if different armor feats gave differing amounts of different resistances, instead of every light armor giving Resistance 20 to everything, etc…
Stilachio Thrax
Bringslite of Staalgard
Duffy Swiftshadow
Stilachio Thrax
Its threads like this that really, really make me wish they could more closely follow TT rules for armor and weapons. I think they have dug themselves into a hole they can't get out of.

I'm not sure it would help, the TT rules for AC and Attack Bonus are generally considered to start breaking down around level 12. What do you mean by that?
Can't speak for The Pistachio but I am guessing that he means a more generally progressive system that, overall, performs better and is more intuitive than what we have.

Some more "similarity" to how TT rules work might be familiar enough to keep more TT players as well, IMO. That's just opinion however, I know that would require quite the overhaul that is pretty much impossible now, also as he suggests. I doubt Paizo is realistically interested in doing that much work over the next year. It was pointed out that they recognize PfO will be a sort of "specialist niche" game. If they can get several thousands to like the game enough to sub out of the ToTs maybe that will be enough to get a foothold established for more major works.

That is more or less it. I could expand on the decision to make the armor follow a linear axis of "Heavy is good physical protection but generally sucks at everything else" and "Cloth should suck at physical protection but be great at everything else" when everything dangerous at higher level is uses energy-based attacks or attacks that focus on reflex. So we are stuck with robe-wearing mages tanking better than a heavy armor wearing fighter despite mage attacks being able to attack from range and out-damaging most melee attacks.

Sadly, this is probably an unfixable problem at this stage.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Wolf of Rathglen
This form of armor resistance, wait for it, is a stand-in for a system they'll put in someday.

Cloth armor has 32 energy resist now to reflect how high you could enchant light armor to resist energy in the nostalgia of an imagined future. Some sort of inherent value like 20 + 12 enchanted = 32 energy resist. Same goes for the other armor types.

@Duffy The intended maximum for weapons and armor is 12kp from 2 major and 4 minor keywords at T3+3, is there an armor bug that bumps it to 13kp?

Bob
EPow/EPro's job is really just to to make the secondary effects on an attack have roughly the same progression ramp as damage does. Where it doesn't quite pull that job off, we'll certainly look at making adjustments to that. For Beneficial attacks, that largely means ignoring EPro for much the same reasons that Beneficial attacks don't generally get affected by resistances and don't check for partial success or crits. For non-Beneficial attacks, that will eventually mean changes that make it look more specifically at the the nature of the attack and defenses involved, rather than just using generalized levels of power and protection, to better match the way damage types and resistances affect the damage progression.

For issues that are more about the way the progression ramp looks, particularly as characters jump from T2 to T3, we'd want to look at the progression ramp overall, for damage, resistance, effects and everything, then adjust EPow/EPro in line with changes to the rest of the system.

Bob keeps speaking in terms of damage, resistance, partial successes, etc. which already exist in the game separate from Epow. I'm still wondering why keywords need to grant epow which simulates chunks of damage, resistance, etc. instead of the keywords directly granting chunks of damage, resistance, etc.

There are two ways T3 armor can give a 40% defensive bonus over T2 to make it worth the expense and crafting time.

One way where it directly raises resistances, defenses, hp, power, etc. and it's up to me to develop a character with skills to enhance my attack, lower enemy defenses and resistance, and do whatever sneaky trick I can (read: PvP strategy) to chip into that gap however much my gaming skill and creativity will push and give myself a better chance in combat.

The other way is "a keyword is present" -40% to everything penalty and my game ends there because any of my character development isn't allowed to touch that full penalty. That's not a game or challenge. That's an inaccessible part of the programming charging at me with murderous intent.

If we're going to stratify gear so much that tiers can't meaningfully interact with each other this out-of-nowhere bonus that all my training isn't allowed to touch works fine. Except the tiers don't exist apart from each other.

So I circle back to if Epow needs to be refined to better regulate damage applied, resistance taken off attacks, effects etc., why don't the keyword and stats we have and already use for that just be the things we use for that?

——

I keep speaking from the perspective of a solid T2 geared person trying to deal with characters years older and rocking their T3 and how can this possibly not be a horror show and unsub. That's not me I'm here since alpha and have all the xp, I'm T3. It's fine if the gap can be BIG but not so hopeless any players we manage to get in here don't bother to wait around over a year because there's nothing they can do for the next 14 months to mitigate or progress each week towards closing that huge gap of wtfpwn.
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
 
You must be logged into an enrolled account to post