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Before the Tens of Thousands.

Bob
Ninja-posted by Stephen in absentia. Something new every day.
You are a Troll
Midnight
For a PvP game you usually want falling damage so that terrain has an actual combat effect in both directions. Getting ON the mountain, and getting OFF the mountain should BOTH require going through chokepoints.

+100
Father Bronin
But until we get falling damage, you really must jump off of the cliff through the waterfall. Everybody has to do it at least once.

FB
Tyncale
Obviously I do not agree with Stephen that it is not high priority. As Midnight pointed out, the no falling damage negates an important aspect of how the world is built around chokepoints, gathering, transport and land-domination. It is also incredably cheesy to see players and mules skate off these humongous cliffs. When I have harvested in the mountains above Callambea, I am just one glide away from the safety of my own Town, which again negates an important PvP aspect: having to transport your goodies home.

There are many players in the ToT that are looking for an open world PvP game(most, I would assume), and they are going to have a ball with the no falling damage *and* the shooting through buildings. They will point this out on day one and will not stop about it. The Steam Crowd is not going to play nice. Now if they bicker about the graphics, fine. But the above points are unforgivable imo.

Maybe invisable walls as a temp solution? Even though I hate invisable walls, and so will the ToT. But at least the chokepoints would start getting meaning.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Flari-Merchant
It would add some basic tactical depth to playing if there were actual choke points because of height and water obstacles. We have to keep in mind that this is a really small team of Developers. They don't get much smaller, hehe.

There really is a great deal of room for game improvement here but certainly no matter what state a game is in, with ToT you will have somebody crying about something no matter what you spend your efforts on improving or adding.

I still wonder what kind of possibilities there are for interning up and coming game development students, amateurs and volunteers there might be. There certainly must be some sort of angle to approach that would allow for such development methods.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Bringslite of Staalgard
I still wonder what kind of possibilities there are for interning up and coming game development students, amateurs and volunteers there might be. There certainly must be some sort of angle to approach that would allow for such development methods.

Negligible to non-existent. For coding 99.999% of fresh interns/amateurs will be some form of net loss for months to years depending on the scope and complexity of your product. That's not a knock on newbies, it's just that while you may get a firm grasp of the basics from schooling or self learning there's so much detail variance between languages, tools, standards, techniques, and even just team processes that anyone who hasn't been spending years working with similar tools or inside similar teams will require guidance and support.

That is normally fine and expected, but with such a limited team and funding that could seriously cut into their ability to make forward progress. Adding a new intern doesn't mean you get 3 people's worth the work when they start. It means you get 1.5 (or less) people's worth the work for some training and up to speed time, then you just over 2+ people's worth of work after a few weeks or months, and then you spend most of a year getting up to that full 3 people's worth of work regularly. Assuming of course the intern works out, if they don't and you need to get a new one you reset the cycle.

They would need enough 'extra' coders redundantly coding that the 'senior' in charge spends less time sorting through their output and picking/fixing the 'best' solutions than if they just did it themselves. I don't think they have the funds or fan base for that.
Flari-Merchant
Duffy Swiftshadow
Bringslite of Staalgard
I still wonder what kind of possibilities there are for interning up and coming game development students, amateurs and volunteers there might be. There certainly must be some sort of angle to approach that would allow for such development methods.

Negligible to non-existent. For coding 99.999% of fresh interns/amateurs will be some form of net loss for months to years depending on the scope and complexity of your product. That's not a knock on newbies, it's just that while you may get a firm grasp of the basics from schooling or self learning there's so much detail variance between languages, tools, standards, techniques, and even just team processes that anyone who hasn't been spending years working with similar tools or inside similar teams will require guidance and support.

That is normally fine and expected, but with such a limited team and funding that could seriously cut into their ability to make forward progress. Adding a new intern doesn't mean you get 3 people's worth the work when they start. It means you get 1.5 (or less) people's worth the work for some training and up to speed time, then you just over 2+ people's worth of work after a few weeks or months, and then you spend most of a year getting up to that full 3 people's worth of work regularly. Assuming of course the intern works out, if they don't and you need to get a new one you reset the cycle.

They would need enough 'extra' coders redundantly coding that the 'senior' in charge spends less time sorting through their output and picking/fixing the 'best' solutions than if they just did it themselves. I don't think they have the funds or fan base for that.
Really?
It would be that difficult to get an intern(a near or new graduate) to put background music into the game? Volunteers to grab new players and guide them through their first few days?
What if they could train someone in two or three weeks to handle customer service and email so Bob could free up that time?
Interns for modeling new mobs, animating them and such. It is Unity isn't it?
How about just improving this website?

There is quite a bit of info under "find game design interns" just by Googling it. Seems like that is largely how new designers get something to put on their resume. There is eager to learn new talent out there right now. The Seattle area has many schools that offer Game Design. Isn't ANY new staff going to need to learn the particulars at ANY studio that they hire on to?

Why pay Pros full salary for learning your methods and getting up to speed when you can help yourself with eager interns and volunteers for the hundreds of little projects that need improving and implementing for this game? They need and want to get something to put in their resume. I would think that Problem Solving would be a damn fine addition to any portfolio for a beginner.

By your logic how, where and when is the magic going to happen?

P.S. How much time and effort did The Goblinary cost GW? There were numerous player made guides when beta and EE started. Why not have volunteer players design at least some of the Core Rulebook Project? Hell offer something nice for the best one that is put forth.
Smitty
Didn't Seattle just mandate $15/hr… for interns and pretty much all jobs… (or something along those lines.) I imagine the issue is, if paizo has the funds to hire an intern.. they may as well just look for another permanent position.
Flari-Merchant
Smitty
Didn't Seattle just mandate $15/hr… for interns and pretty much all jobs… (or something along those lines.) I imagine the issue is, if paizo has the funds to hire an intern.. they may as well just look for another permanent position.
How internships work without pay or how that all works, I don't know. Within Seattle City limits, yeah they have or are trying to get the min wage up.
I suppose that what I am bulling through for is getting out of the small box of "we can do all of this ourselves" attitude and using whatever legal things are possible to get more done, moar kwiker! Unpaid Internships, WA State. That is just within Seattle though. Take some strain off of Bob, Cole, and Lisa with SOME of the less intensive parts of their roadmap. That would be up to them to figure out, but hopefully Bob and Cole won't be spending time on the Core Rulebook. I think that their time could be better spent. Honestly, I have no idea if they already have other plans about that. If so, I hope that they have other plans to utilize whatever free Intern angles or low cost contractual or volunteer sources they can scrounge legally.

Whatever might save time and cost.

What if there is some eager young game designer out there that knows(or can figure out) an easier way around "the water problem" (for example) or anything else that PfO base code has made difficult? I am not saying that it would be easy to find "magic people" to help with this stuff for free, but has any effort been put out to try?
Duffy Swiftshadow
Normally I would spend all the time writing out the whats and the whys, but I'm tired of it so I'll simplify:

1. You just described how cost cutting software outsourcing companies worked for the past 20 years, they've been failing because the quality of their work is often horrendous and more work to integrate into a project than to hire local professionals to do it. No one competent has outsourced work like that in the last decade.

2. If it was so trivially easy you would see true 'amateur' products to rival 'Indie Companies' constantly, but it's not trivial. Most 'good' and relatively simple amateur products take several years to bring to fruition while working other jobs. If you want 5-10 more years of development, then maybe they could turn it into a more open hobby project.

If it was easy to do (legally or otherwise) you think for one moment the ridiculously rich and profit motivated game publishing companies wouldn't utilize free/cheap work-forces to pump out games?

3. If someone is any good at this stuff, which they would need to be if they were good enough to submit useful work, they are probably already employed doing it. Demand is high for technical jobs and the game industry is notorious for chewing up and spitting out employees. It's kind of a 'bad' industry if you aren't independent (which often means struggling) or at the very top.

4. Tons of people 'want' to be involved in game dev, it doesn't mean they can or should be. I've been a software engineer for 15 years and I would be near worthless to GW for 98% of what they code. I would still love to be a game dev but it would take me a few years to get on par to an okay game dev and I would need to take a significant pay cut even to join a well off company.

Goblinary is a non-critical fan project that has consumed probably dozens of hours and yet is still a pittance compared to putting real day to day work into it. It could be way better.

We rotate coding/testing interns through our company all the time, they are not major gains and introduce overhead you need to cover.

Edit: The water and 'cave' limits from Unity are well known engine problem that many professional companies besides GW have mentioned (I saw it 3x this week between games I follow and E3 stuff) and no one has found a silver bullet workaround. Which goes back to what I'm trying to say: It's not always that easy and if it could be done, someone would have done it.
 
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