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Before the Tens of Thousands.

Tyncale
You are a Troll
Tyncale
Disclaimer: me thinking the ToT is the Greenlight Steam Crowd is total conjecture on my part!! Could be totally something else.

Especially since Steam GreenLight is now dead?

It seems so, thanks for bringing that to my attention. smile Apparently they now have Steam Direct.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Hobson Fiffledown
Another item which should fall well before the ToT is some basic goblinworks.com text editing work. Has anyone read through some of the pages recently? If a new player only read the website info and then backed the game, how well would the experience fit the expectations of described play?

https://goblinworks.com/pathfinder-online/features/

I'm not talking major changes, but if you're listing stuff in features that is not in the game, you really need to add a whole bunch of "soon", "one day", "further down the design road", "Pharasma willing", "we are looking at one day…" and so on. We're really only talking about a text edit to bring the game description in line with the current game features.

Yes, there needs to be an eventual website revamp or something one day for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm sure that's planned for already. The little bit of work it will take to do this edit is much more beneficial sooner than later. Even if some promotional/informative reworks are planned for the November core rulebook goal, that's five months of bad information sitting there for every new player to read and expect in game.

For all of those players out there who keep mentioning wanting to do gratis work, fire up that Omniwriter and get out your grammar books. No changing presentation, sections, or intent, just minimally clean it up to align with the current game and goals. smile

(And the / chat doesn't really work… I was trying to think of something simple for the current system, because adding a whole bunch of /g, /s, /h, individual commands is more work than I'd suggest on the current chat system. Different chat before ToT, no need to change current chat until then.)
This space for rent.
Lisa Stevens
Hobson Fiffledown
Yes, there needs to be an eventual website revamp or something one day for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm sure that's planned for already.

Eventually, all of this will be on paizo.com. The whole Paizo website is in the middle of a website revamp and redesign. As part of that redesign, we will move all the Pathfinder Online functionality into that website and shut this down. I don't want to waste too many resources right now on goblinworks.com when it will be going away sometime in the future. It is functional which is all I need now. When the ToTs come, well, it will need to be a lot better.

-Lisa
Flari-Merchant
Lisa Stevens
Hobson Fiffledown
Yes, there needs to be an eventual website revamp or something one day for a whole bunch of reasons, I'm sure that's planned for already.

Eventually, all of this will be on paizo.com. The whole Paizo website is in the middle of a website revamp and redesign. As part of that redesign, we will move all the Pathfinder Online functionality into that website and shut this down. I don't want to waste too many resources right now on goblinworks.com when it will be going away sometime in the future. It is functional which is all I need now. When the ToTs come, well, it will need to be a lot better.

-Lisa
The Lady serves us wisdom!
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Wolf of Rathglen
Well, before we expose this game to the Tens of Thousands, at least two big things NEED to happen.

Effect Power Needs To Die. $10 million of funding tomorrow and still no masses will play a finalized game where their skills get weaker as they progress. Not just proportionately less effective over time, but progressively smaller and smaller numbers than what they started with. Epow/Epro is entirely redundant in combat to the percentage reductions that already existed from attack and defense, implemented ad hoc to solve a corner case healing issue (instead of fixing the healing orison). The ToT will just leave to play another game that doesn't make their skills weaker as they advance, meaning any other game.

Pathfinder Online needs to decide what game it is. Are we making a game that is a radical totally new gaming experience or to play "Pathfinder" online?

It's a PvP game where players must PvE to get any materials to advance or PvP. Long-anticipated powerful high level spells… that are only 4/7ths as strong as their description and just get weaker from there. The lie about a classless game full of rogues, wizards, fighters, and clerics and we're adding all the other core Pathfinder classes later!

It's not even on the distant roadmap to help PFO DMs create and guide their friends through player-crafted adventures in this virtual River Kingdoms (chock full of other player characters at the same time!) and string them together into a campaign to sell at the PFO Store. Instead groups of players fight each other for territory to harvest resources used in a player run economy that spans a single unified world.

That sounds more like making "EVE Online" Online but with a Pathfinder face spackled over the top. That disconnect between what Pathfinder was before Ryan and Lisa had a meeting and what this game is tossing out at players for $15/month is at the core of every difficulty we've had getting going as a game people want to play and retaining players.
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
Tyncale
It's not even on the distant roadmap to help PFO DMs create and guide their friends through player-crafted adventures in this virtual River Kingdoms (chock full of other player characters at the same time!) and string them together into a campaign to sell at the PFO Store. Instead groups of players fight each other for territory to harvest resources used in a player run economy that spans a single unified world.

When I pledged for the first Kickstarter and then for the second, I was actually expecting the second part of what you say above, i.e. EVE Online goes Fantasy. I personally feel that this is what Ryan Dancey pitched in the Kickstarters, this is what I wanted and this is what they are making in my opinion.

I guess my luck was that I am not a Tabletop player at all and actually had never heard of Pathfinder untill I found the announcement of the first Kickstarter! So my expectations were never anything that resembled the first part that you mention in the above quote.

To be honest, having been there from day 1 of the first KS and having read all the blogs and blurbs and posts by Ryan, Stephen, Lee and so on, I think it was pretty clear that this was going to be more the second, then the first. A huge Online world where a Game of Thrones would take place, based on an Economy that was run by Builders (PvE) and Wreckers (PvP). I am pretty sure I *never* read anything about this being for small groups of friends doing a dungeon and finishing a Campaign.

The fact that this was PvP mixed with PvE was also very clear from the beginning. The blogs explain this in detail, all the way from the earliest blogs. But I will admit that they initially *did* pitch this to the Pathfinder Tabletop crowd too, which was understandable, I guess, but really bit them in the ass later.

Still does. But I think the answer to your second point is, that it is Eve Online goes Fantasy. With a Pathfinder sauce on top(Lore, naming, looks but not gameplay).

Lisa, I understand that this website will be incorporated in the Paizo website and that is a good time to update all the info. Looking at the above, I think extra effort should be taken into explaining what MMO-ers and the current Paizo Crowd can expect from PFO, and how PFO is vastly different in gameplay then your regular Tabletop Adventure.

If the game ever becomes a success (fingers crossed) I am sure we will see Dungeons, and more Pathfinder Assets, Lore and graphics, but this will *still* be a total different game then anything Tabletop.

It is Massively Multiplayer, completely different beast.

Edit: as to your first point, I agree that the Epow thing is hugely un-intuitive and indeed will cause a lot of objections. I have no solution though, I know it has to do with PvP balance. smile I am sure there are other ways but that would probably mean a complete overhaul.
Maybe it can be tweaked to be not so punishing?
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Duffy Swiftshadow
It's a PvP and PvE Sandbox game loosely based on the Kingmaker Module and the similar/same rules expanded upon in the Ultimate Campaign book. That's what was pitched and that's what they've been putting together. A large part of that is due to cost, making a Pathfinder PVE/Adventure game would be stupidly expensive and complex comparatively, thus it's not going to be a thing anytime soon even if they wanted to include it, of which I have seen no inclination that I can recall.

In the simplest terms PFO is Fantasy EVE, and that core premise probably is not going to change without someone donating way more than they've had to date, and even then I don't think they're gonna change course that radically.
plopmania
While I think that the game is well within the initial pitches and has stayed true to the original goal, Wolf of Rathglen does have a point:
For many people, this game is not "Pathfinder" online, since for them Pathfinder is the rule set (and not the world), an upgrade on top of DnD 3.5.
Golarion Online (while not as well known), would have been a much more forgiving name.
Tyncale
plopmania
While I think that the game is well within the initial pitches and has stayed true to the original goal, Wolf of Rathglen does have a point:
For many people, this game is not "Pathfinder" online, since for them Pathfinder is the rule set (and not the world), an upgrade on top of DnD 3.5.
Golarion Online (while not as well known), would have been a much more forgiving name.
I certainly agree with that. I also would not expect everyone to be as involved as I was with the Kickstarters and read every blog minutely. Having said that, the pitch for both KSers read clearly "MMO" to me, however, they probably should have explained that the Combat mechanics would be nothing like the TT. That would have avoided a lot of problems.

This was the pitch for the 1st Kickstarter(tech demo):

A fantasy sandbox MMO RPG where the character's actions are persistent, the players build kingdoms and YOU are the storytellers!

And then explained "What is Pathfinder Online":

Pathfinder Online is a hybrid sandbox/theme park-style MMO where characters explore, develop, find adventure and dominate a wilderness frontier in a land of sword and sorcery. The Pathfinder world is high fantasy in the tradition of epics like The Lord of the Rings, Conan, The Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones.

The Pathfinder setting includes many different classic and modern fantasy elements, from lost cities shrouded in misty jungles to decaying pyramids amidst deserts of burning sands to a fantastic island metropolis where folk from across the world live side by side with all manner of fantastic creatures. The Pathfinder world has a place for any story a player wants to tell. (For more information on the world of Pathfinder and the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, please visit http://paizo.com/pathfinder.)

Pathfinder Online’s robust trading system puts players in control of the world’s economy with player-created items, consumables, fortifications, and settlements. Character-controlled settlements can grow into full-fledged kingdoms that compete for resources as they seek to become the dominant force in the land, raising vast armies to hold their territory against the depredations of monstrous creatures, NPC factions, and other player characters.

Social organizations scale from small parties of a few adventurers to player nations inhabited by thousands. As settlements develop, the surrounding wilderness develops more complex and challenging features, including randomly generated encounters and resources as well as exciting scripted adventures.

Pitch for the second Kickstarter:

A game where your actions are persistent, your characters can build kingdoms, and YOU are the storyteller!

Bulletlist of what PFO is on the main Campaign page:

Pathfinder Online is a fantasy sandbox MMO by Goblinworks based on the Pathfinder tabletop game. It uses a unique process called "Crowdforging" to determine what features are implemented in the game, in what order.

Here is a brief list of some of the highlights of this game:

1. No Grinding- Pathfinder Online uses a skill training system like that of EVE Online. You train skills by choosing what skill you want to train and allowing the time required to elapse. You don't train any faster by farming mobs or spamming your abilities than you do exploring the world, role playing with your friends, or even being offline. You will need to complete certain achievements to complete a skill and open up new avenues of training.

2. No Classes- Unlike other games that give you a narrow range of abilities as you train your class, in Pathfinder you gain levels in different Roles based off what you have trained.

3. Player Structures- Build your own homes, taverns, farms, and even cities! The Pathfinder Online world will be filled with places players can use to build and customize their own homes, businesses and communities.

4. More Than A Gankfest- Unlike other Open World PVP MMO's currently on the market, Pathfinder Online actively discourages meaningless PVP. A meaningful alignment system that actually offers mechanical advantages to lawful and good aligned organizations, and a functional bounty system that allows the player to choose which players and organizations can collect the bounties they set discourages random and meaningless killing. Beyond this, the admins are taking a hard stance against 'griefing', in which players specifically seek to ruin the experience of other players, often through using game mechanics in ways that weren't intended. Griefing in PFO can be a bannable offence.

5. All Players are Useful- This won't be like games where a new player has 49 health and a veteran has 49,000. The attacks from that new player won't automatically miss the veteran. A new player will be weaker, but still able to make a meaningful contribution to combat. As a sandbox where group sizes aren't limited, this means all players are useful, and don't have to segregate themselves by level.

6. Trade is Meaningful- In Pathfinder Online players must manually transport items to their intended destination. Most shops are player-run, and there will be goods more abundant in or even exclusive to certain regions. Merchants, traders, and even auctioneers are all viable professions.

Every 2 weeks we publish a Development Blog about Pathfinder Online on the Goblinworks website. Those blogs contain a wealth of information about the design and the ideas we have for the game.

I think DDO always did a nice job of bringing TT mechanics to an Online multiplayer world. Off course that whole game is set up around instanced, small group dungeons. Different Beast. Maybe people were expecting something like that for PFO, but I think reading those pitches should have raised some alarms. smile
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Wolf of Rathglen
You guys are in the general groove. In the Kickstarter PFO was billed as Eve with swords, but I am making the point that nothing about the Pathfinder IP is Eve with swords. So you have people coming to play Eve with swords that are disappointed and annoyed by the Pathfinder parts of the game, and you have people coming to play Pathfinder online and are disappointed and annoyed by the Eve with swords parts of the game. The core of our difficulties attracting and mainly retaining players.

Obviously we can't change some things like xp even if it is more logical for a MMO and in-line with Pathfinder to build PvP skills by PvPing and crafting skills by actually crafting. But there are some sickly features not directly analogous to EVE Online suffering from not knowing how to be copied from that game (hey, "alpha aristocracy" keeping it 100 over here) that we can change to increase the fun (and quantity) of players, the biggest among them spells.

"My feature feat indicates I should obviously have access to this school/domain of spells, but I only get 4/7ths the description because of missed keyword matches to my feature". Some symptoms of Spell Sickness are Tier 3 spells that are actually only Tier 2, failure for your spell to increase in power as your character does, and a massive difficulty for developers to balance the multiple versions of your spell in PvP.

It's been years and I'm still baffled to this day why with nine levels of spells there aren't nine levels of feature feat, the presence or absence of keywords on those feature feats granting or denying access to schools of full-description-power spells that are 1)completely predictable and easier to balance for computer game PvP 2)adapt material already available in the Pathfinder Player Guide instead of developing from scratch three times as many spells -one version for each tier- except not really that many versions so most spells you spend xp on become quickly useless to you and 3) already balanced so a level 1 can't hack healing for a level 12 group eliminating the need to invent Epow after Early Enrollment already started because no one thought of that percentage-based focus orison available for 83xp hacking healing until now.

Tyncale
Edit: as to your first point, I agree that the Epow thing is hugely un-intuitive and indeed will cause a lot of objections. I have no solution though, I know it has to do with PvP balance. smile I am sure there are other ways but that would probably mean a complete overhaul.

Nope, like I said Epow in PvP combat is ENTIRELY redundant to what was mechanically already in place. We already get +50 defense and average +50 attack per tier, and total attack is compared to total defense to get a decimal for all damage, stacks, and effect durations to be multiplied by that decimal. So a T1 (50 base + peripheral bonuses) attacking a T2 (100 base + peripheral bonuses) might go 75/125= .6 and the T1 already loses 40% of their damage, stacks, etc. on that attack against T2, no Epow necessary. (Roll 125 attack or better = 1.0 and you get full damage, good job!)

Imagine a T2 rogue does the strategic work getting a build with +Precise, attack bonuses, and lowering enemy reflex defense. In combat he rolls 155 total attack vs. a T3's debuffed 155 total defense, that rogue deserves a full strength strike! But Epow/Epro gives the rogue a 40% damage penalty anyway just because the T3 has given more real world money to Paizo (subscription which gets more xp to train T3 keyword). That violates so much for gamers but also the #5 All Players Are Useful Kickstarter principle you just quoted.

Epow was invented after we started playing in-game (I can't stress enough the lack of planning for it) because the contemporary version of Minor Cure on cleric focus healed a good percentage of the target's max hit points for an 83xp investment into rank 1 of the skill and free T1+0 focus. That's it. PvPers realized this can wildly unbalance healing in their favor while fighting for big green towers and others realized a 1k xp alt can decently heal a level 12 PvE group which is also unbalanced.

So instead of changing Minor Cure to start very weak at rank 1 and gain healing ability as the character builds achievements and attribute points and invests the xp into higher ranks like EVERY OTHER weapon-based skill (and functionally how Minor Cure works in Pathfinder), someone decided to invent and saddle this unfair redundant mess on every skill for everyone.

That's why you spend valuable xp to train a new keyword and all your skills lose effectiveness, why T3 is unhealable to a Level 14 real cleric, why I can't upgrade my armor for Epro "protecting" me from my own self-buffs and heals (that have no T3 keyworded option), and why your top hotbar with 6 spaces likely has only two skills in it because every other spell you learned or could learn isn't worth spending the xp.

If this is feeling like a harsh flame post by now, please keep in mind I stated (one commonly held opinion about paying real money for unearned in-game advantages and) facts about Epow.
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
 
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