Cookies Disclaimer

I agree Our site saves small pieces of text information (cookies) on your device in order to authenticate logins, deliver better content and provide statistical analysis. You can adjust your browser settings to prevent our site from using cookies, but doing so will prevent some aspects of the site from functioning properly.

Before the Tens of Thousands.

Wolf of Rathglen
Bringslite of Staalgard
Midnight
Duffy Swiftshadow
I think it's a far bigger problem and way more confusing that beneficial effects get weaker for better geared characters.

this.
Yes. This is the central problem. Being harder to harm because you wear better gear makes some sense at least. Though it could be that it is too hard to harm vs better gear.

Insult added to injury that attack/defense scores on each offensive attack do the exact same thing as Epro/Epow, the more underpowered you are compared to your target the less damage you do. It was already fair and fine for combat.

We have this absurd situation with Epro and beneficial spells when we didn't even need it for PvP or PvE combat in the first place.

And yeah they had invented it by the time Lee said they're turning it on, but it didn't exist when EE launched. They gave us all the formulas for attack rolls, damage, crits, etc. at the time. Total attack and defense figured prominently in all of it, Epow and Epro were nowhere to be seen. Three years of discussions about every aspect of the game and Epow was never mentioned to players until AFTER player complaints in the forum about a rank 1 healing orison being OP.
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
Wolf of Rathglen
Duffy Swiftshadow
While I think the EPoW vs EPro thing is a bit overly complex (I understand why) it's not inherently a problem for offensive task because it does what is expected: better defensive gear protects you from things, thus your tier 2 spell doesn't hurt a tier 3 person as much as a t2, that is a reasonable expectation concerning power curves and gear, the awkwardness is in how that gets represented, not that it's happening.

I think it's a far bigger problem and way more confusing that beneficial effects get weaker for better geared characters.

The problem for beneficial effects is the main problem (I believe a game killer), but I want to point out there is a major problem on the offensive side too. T3 provides 50 base defense more than T2 average base offense which is significant, but can be overcome at that stage of the game. If a T2 makes meaningful choices well and does the strategic work to buff his attack and lower his target T3s defense to equal numbers he deserves a full strength hit- which he won't get.

Instead Epow provides a situation where a put together T2 could get an attack roll higher than the T3 target's defense for a full strength strike and critical hit calculation, but still suffers a 40% damage penalty because the T3 has been subscribed longer to train a particular keyword.

You try and convince that player he shouldn't quit because newer players really do stand a chance against longer subscribers.
Hammerfall: Like a waterfall, but tougher.
Decius
Wolf of Rathglen
Duffy Swiftshadow
While I think the EPoW vs EPro thing is a bit overly complex (I understand why) it's not inherently a problem for offensive task because it does what is expected: better defensive gear protects you from things, thus your tier 2 spell doesn't hurt a tier 3 person as much as a t2, that is a reasonable expectation concerning power curves and gear, the awkwardness is in how that gets represented, not that it's happening.

I think it's a far bigger problem and way more confusing that beneficial effects get weaker for better geared characters.

The problem for beneficial effects is the main problem (I believe a game killer), but I want to point out there is a major problem on the offensive side too. T3 provides 50 base defense more than T2 average base offense which is significant, but can be overcome at that stage of the game. If a T2 makes meaningful choices well and does the strategic work to buff his attack and lower his target T3s defense to equal numbers he deserves a full strength hit- which he won't get.

Instead Epow provides a situation where a put together T2 could get an attack roll higher than the T3 target's defense for a full strength strike and critical hit calculation, but still suffers a 40% damage penalty because the T3 has been subscribed longer to train a particular keyword.

You try and convince that player he shouldn't quit because newer players really do stand a chance against longer subscribers.
Terminology is very important.
You said "Damage", but made a statement that was only true about "Effect". If Effect numbers scaled up with more keywords matched, in a manner similar to the way Base Damage does, Effect Power would be implemented differently. And we would still need some way that better armor reduced those effects.

I'm more sore about the abandonment of per-keyword resistance boni on armor.
You are a Troll
Yeah, I think you are kinda confused on how it works Wolf dude…
Duffy Swiftshadow
Due to the way the Attack formula works in this game I think its completely fair that higher tier armor would have universal defensive benefits against a lower tier person. Even if the lower tier person built well enough to beat the target defense reliably they should still do less to the higher tier gear comparatively, and that's what the whole keyword epow/epro system does, its a very granular and iterative progress system. The way it does that is just spread out across three areas: the passive defense score boost, the specific relevant bonuses from the armor's keywords (mixed offensive and defensive), and Epro which mainly effects expendables and effects. If you remove any of those some component ends up not being affect by the tier jump, and that would be pretty bad. Honestly the best candidate for removal is the passive +50 per tier; roll that into the keyword bonuses instead so it's more granular progression throughout a tier.

Part of the problem is we also don't have the restrictions that were planned on our gear load-outs via threading which makes the difference between a T2 and T3 person very very noticeable.

Amusingly the d20 systems have this built in, as you level sure you get stronger, but the monsters start getting more and more formidable and varied defenses that negate your gains to a degree. It becomes more about taking advantage of the weak points than just slamming everything you got into them.

As I said, the thing that's really weird to me is that healing and buffs get weaker, that just doesn't sit as well with me as the offensive stuff being reduced.
Nihimon
Duffy Swiftshadow
Part of the problem is we also don't have the restrictions that were planned on our gear load-outs via threading which makes the difference between a T2 and T3 person very very noticeable.

This. I think the original design was that un-threaded gear would have the same 25% chance to be instantly destroyed as inventory items, and would just be on your husk if it wasn't destroyed. Only threaded gear would stay on your body, and it would still take the durability hit. If that system were in place, people would be a lot more circumspect about running around in T3. I think it would be a mistake for the devs to spend a lot of time trying to develop an "interim" solution to this problem.

Duffy Swiftshadow
As I said, the thing that's really weird to me is that healing and buffs get weaker, that just doesn't sit as well with me as the offensive stuff being reduced.

In the pen-and-paper, there's Cure Light Wounds, Cure Moderate Wounds, Cure Serious Wounds, and Cure Critical Wounds. In PFO, there's Minor Cure, which scales according to your Keyword Power. I don't think it's weird or wrong that Minor Cure doesn't do much if the Keyword Power is too low. Consider, Minor Cure with 8 Keywords is going to be 50% effective on someone matching 13 Armor Keywords.

If anything, I think there's a minor problem with the system allowing folks to match 13 Armor Keywords.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Lisa Stevens
Duffy Swiftshadow
I think it's a far bigger problem and way more confusing that beneficial effects get weaker for better geared characters.

I will let Bob chime in tomorrow, but we have talked about this and he is planning on changing the way that beneficials get less effective as you go up in tiers of gear.

-Lisa
You are a Troll
Lisa Stevens
Duffy Swiftshadow
I think it's a far bigger problem and way more confusing that beneficial effects get weaker for better geared characters.

I will let Bob chime in tomorrow, but we have talked about this and he is planning on changing the way that beneficials get less effective as you go up in tiers of gear.

-Lisa

That is….disappointing. Low level spells - buffs and cures too - should be less effective against people in high level armor. That is one of the trade-offs (meaningful choices) you make when donning T3+3 armor.
Duffy Swiftshadow
Well they are less effective by percentage anyways, what's really misleading is that they get even weaker. The percentage of my HP that is healed by a particular spell goes down as my HP goes up, Epro reduces that even further as I drift away. Which means I can only use T3 expendables to achieve the same kind of result, which is more like standing in place than advancing. It does to T2 what everyone complained happened to T1, it's useless as soon as you can get better.

It ends up discouraging build variety if you can't match most of the words. A lot of expendables are designed so you can mix across some classes. For example a bunch of Fighter stuff has words that match Rogue Kits, and vice versa. The issue is that Epro makes this cross building even less effective than just not matching all the keywords. Even wearing T2, I only match 1/2 the words on a T2 Fighter Expendable, but because of EPro it's 50% weaker ON TOP of already being 50% weaker from lack of full match Keywords. If I upgrade to T3 it's worse, you basically need to upgrade to T3 versions which is way more restrictive. This strongly pushes cross building into non viable territory.

Wizards and Clerics have a lot more expendables available, but a lot of cross school/domain options are 50% or less matches. They are too weak with the double reduction, even though everything else about the system implies you should mix and match to some degree it's actually a hidden trap.
Edam
Edam is crazy cross classed and still bumbles along and generally survives most PvE stuff. Admittedly he would be hopeless at PvP but as a player I grew out of the ego/epeen driven pvp scene about 10 years ago so lack of PvP focus is not a big issue for me. His general unsuitability to any sort of PvP is not really an artifact of EPRO/EPOW though.

I actually like EPRO/EPOW and the ideas behind it. The substantial extra protection it provides against lower level debuffs/stuns etc is one of the key real benefits of T3 armor.

Yes the way it nerfs beneficial spells is sucky until you get your buffs and saves up to T3 = and it means you cannot be cheap and use low level potions and heals or rely on low level party mates to save your arse if you over-commit. That does NOT mean we should get get rid of EPRO/EPOW.

A rebalance so beneficials take less of a hit than offensive debuffs is all that is needed. Basically T2 buffs and heals being 50% effective against T3 instead of the current 10-20% would be all that is needed. The only other tweak I would suggest is the cleric focus buffs with a two round duration are actually too short once they take an EPRO/EPOW hit to be useful (same with things like energetic field) and something like 3 or 4 rounds minimum would work better.
 
You must be logged into an enrolled account to post