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Harvesting (aka Gushers)

Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
You need to possibly consider that as escalations go, each group doing them usually has a method, some plan for each group they tackle and finally players choose the groups that they tackle. The toughest escalations are going to be the ones that most groups will not want to tangle with wave after stronger wave of NPCs. The mostest bad A$$ critters will wipe whole parties because they will be uncontrolled conditions. A great deal of resources will be used more quickly than normal and so used up very early. Power will run out. Pots, grenades and all tokens will get used with no time to break and get more. If it takes a few gear hits and maybe too many resources to do, even a payoff of 300 Truesilver Ore will seem like an unworthy prize for an hour's hard work for 6 players.

On the other hand, we get to choose when to throw a kit down so there is that. I just feel that gushers found in dangerous places will not be used either.

The waves top out at 10 creatures right now, so they're usually not terrible to deal with, but there will definitely be exceptions. In particular, Gathering of Legends has the potential to spawn 10 of the toughest creatures from one race during a wave if the random numbers fall that way, though it will usually spawn a more balanced assortment. It would be pretty risky to put down a Harvesting Kit under those conditions unless you have a lot of players ready to go, and perhaps a smallholding nearby to resupply. If you use an upgraded T3 Harvesting Kit and kill the attackers pretty quickly, you might also be able to finish production up in 35-40 minutes and you'll deal with a lot less waves than you would using a +0 kit.

You also do get all the loot off those attackers, as well as achievements and possibly lowering some escalation strength, so the harvesting production comes in on top of all that. Still, depending on the attackers, that could be a pretty high-risk way to get those resources compared to gathering. The risks will not always be worth it.
Nihimon
Bob
That said, we do want to make sure that the payoff is compelling…, so I'm open to arguments if the payoff seems like it would rarely be compelling.

I think the problem is that I, personally, had the expectation that Gushers would provide some multiple of value/time, rather than a modest percentage bonus to value/time.

As it stands now, it feels like we're talking about a 15% improvement at the cost (yes, it's a benefit to some) of fighting a bunch of mobs.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Bob
Nihimon
Bob
That said, we do want to make sure that the payoff is compelling…, so I'm open to arguments if the payoff seems like it would rarely be compelling.

I think the problem is that I, personally, had the expectation that Gushers would provide some multiple of value/time, rather than a modest percentage bonus to value/time.

As it stands now, it feels like we're talking about a 15% improvement at the cost (yes, it's a benefit to some) of fighting a bunch of mobs.

That implies that gathering 200 or so T3 resources over 40-45 minutes is fairly typical (or at least not very unusual) for high-level gatherers, assuming a decent hex for the chosen resource. Does that sound about right?
Flari-Merchant
Bob
Nihimon
Bob
That said, we do want to make sure that the payoff is compelling…, so I'm open to arguments if the payoff seems like it would rarely be compelling.

I think the problem is that I, personally, had the expectation that Gushers would provide some multiple of value/time, rather than a modest percentage bonus to value/time.

As it stands now, it feels like we're talking about a 15% improvement at the cost (yes, it's a benefit to some) of fighting a bunch of mobs.

That implies that gathering 200 or so T3 resources over 40-45 minutes is fairly typical (or at least not very unusual) for high-level gatherers, assuming a decent hex for the chosen resource. Does that sound about right?

I can answer that with a no. Not straight T3. However "several" T3 gatherers probably could in the right places. I think that we are going to have to see if it comes to pass that the extra bodies feel it is worth the time and personal cost to them, to do the fighting to protect the materials. Who can say at this point? A limit of 10 critters max per wave does sound a bit better, so thanks for that! smile

We have to keep in mind that the kits are not individually expensive. We do get to see what kind of gusher it is. We do get to decide when to deploy and when not to. Hell, we can even wait to try a T3 hex when it has a T1 escalation in it.

Seems like the main issue is that we were all thinking that gushers would be a bit more… gushy. Something requiring a mule trip or two. IMO, we have lots of options and if they are not going to be "super rare" then we can pick and choose.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Nihimon
Bob
That implies that gathering 200 or so T3 resources over 40-45 minutes is fairly typical (or at least not very unusual) for high-level gatherers, assuming a decent hex for the chosen resource. Does that sound about right?

I don't have hard data on it, but my sense is that it takes me about 60-90 minutes to get 280 Dwoemer Essence out of my preferred hex.

I have a lot of detailed data at home that I will analyze and report back on.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Gross
A meteor hex will give 20-25 adamantine before degrading… so an adamantine or platinum gusher is a great thing, also for ghostwood type forester harvesting as 200-300 gusher is a 9x-10x output compared to responsible top level harvesting, and at a cost of at worst only double the time (depending on hex, some are slower some quicker to take all the top level but I budget 30 minutes in hex on average unless there is a high level escalation present) but for essence probably not that interesting, or things like some T3 forester resources that can give 140 odd in top level.
Mercenary monster hunter from Forgeholm
War priest of Angradd… patiently waiting on Goblinworks to deliver him (and greataxes, Dwarves need 2 handed axes).
Bob
Gross
A meteor hex will give 20-25 adamantine before degrading… so an adamantine or platinum gusher is a great thing, also for ghostwood type forester harvesting as 200-300 gusher is a 9x-10x output compared to responsible top level harvesting, and at a cost of at worst only double the time (depending on hex, some are slower some quicker to take all the top level but I budget 30 minutes in hex on average unless there is a high level escalation present) but for essence probably not that interesting, or things like some T3 forester resources that can give 140 odd in top level.

On the one hand, some of these numbers will have changed a bit with the reallocation of gathering resources coming in EE 13. In most cases, that will mean there's a bit more of some rarer resources, but your point certainly holds that some things get degraded quickly.

Of course, Harvesting still drains the resource, and by quite a bit, as soon as you deploy the Harvesting Kit. However, if you manage to survive the full production cycle, you'll produce more resources than you depleted from the hex, so that's a pretty good tradeoff. Still, just the act of putting down the Harvesting Kit could degrade a resource substantially below what you would intentionally do while gathering, so take care when harvesting really rare resources.
You are a Troll
Don't like to be a nay-sayer BUT - this whole Gusher thing sounds like a lot less than pretty much everyone was hoping for/looking forward to. Willing to give it a chance, but I am highly dubious that as currently designed anyone will bother to deploy a Harvesting Kit very often if at all. Disappointing.
Flari-Merchant
Bob
Gross
A meteor hex will give 20-25 adamantine before degrading… so an adamantine or platinum gusher is a great thing, also for ghostwood type forester harvesting as 200-300 gusher is a 9x-10x output compared to responsible top level harvesting, and at a cost of at worst only double the time (depending on hex, some are slower some quicker to take all the top level but I budget 30 minutes in hex on average unless there is a high level escalation present) but for essence probably not that interesting, or things like some T3 forester resources that can give 140 odd in top level.

On the one hand, some of these numbers will have changed a bit with the reallocation of gathering resources coming in EE 13. In most cases, that will mean there's a bit more of some rarer resources, but your point certainly holds that some things get degraded quickly.

Of course, Harvesting still drains the resource, and by quite a bit, as soon as you deploy the Harvesting Kit. However, if you manage to survive the full production cycle, you'll produce more resources than you depleted from the hex, so that's a pretty good tradeoff. Still, just the act of putting down the Harvesting Kit could degrade a resource substantially below what you would intentionally do while gathering, so take care when harvesting really rare resources.
Very few resources have 100+ pieces in any given hex. The exception being essences. Most any kit deployed that takes 100 of anything will damage that hex beyond responsible gathering levels if it takes one specific type of resource.

Edit: How perfectly redundant of me! smile
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Bob
I've looked over the numbers for harvesting and gathering, and they do look a little underwhelming. The harvesting numbers are certainly very compelling in a lot of cases, but as expressed here, they often seem like just a small bump up in efficiency. I think the crux of the problem is that I'm using the original numbers for harvesting, but the gathering numbers were hacked to be doubled until harvesting was implemented. I'm loathe to slow down harvesting at this point, as the current gathering rewards don't seem too out-of-whack with the rewards for killing mobs and tackling escalations (in terms of rewards over time for similarly skilled characters). As such, I'm looking at doubling the number of resource cycles and halving the time between resource cycles for harvesting, meaning that you'd harvest twice as much in the same amount of time. There would still certainly be plenty of cases where a T3 gatherer wouldn't want to bother with T1 harvesting, but overall harvesting would be a lot more profitable. I'd also leave the drain on the hex's resources at 100, so the efficiency there would be more pronounced (since you'd get at least 200 resources out if the harvesting operation completes, and often more like 400-500).
 
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