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Ammo: Take Your Best Shot

Flari-Merchant
Alright, now that we have EE13 out and other than a few tweaks needed it is working well enough, what about EE14? Specifically the preliminaries on Ammunition.

What are you all expecting?

Some things that I would like to see in the mix:
1. I am hoping to see Cantrips and Orisons that are "personal" and "melee range" be free of ammo requirements.
2. For those attacks that do require ammunition I am hoping to see a system in place for reduced strength/range/duration/attack speed/whatever that allows attacks without crafted ammunition. Maybe something like we are always granted the assumption that we have "makeshift ammunition" no matter what. It is just so weak that it is much more efficient to have crafted ammo to use. Give new players, coin strapped characters and long time mission active players a break. Just make sure that we are well incentivized to prefer the crafted stuff. Competition and min-max will drive the want for the real stuff.

Finally, I have the feeling that the new "EPro" vs "Beneficials" settings are destined to be followed by ammunition requirements for pretty much ALL Cantrips and Orisons.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Maxen
Couple initial thoughts:

First, I'm not sure I agree with anything that is 'spammable' having unlimited charges regardless of how weak the effect is. I do think the ammo pluses should be directly linked to the damage or beneficial effect. On my healer, between Minor Cure and attacks, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that I click my Orisons 50-75 times in a single combat against a group of T3 monsters. I'd hate to think that I'd be burning through 50-75 charges. But maybe I would be if I was using +0 or +1 ammo. Perhaps I'd only burn through 25 charges if I was using +3 because it's more effective. Effect would also be tied to the level of the attack. A +3 arrow fired with a rank 1 attack would not be as damaging as a +3 arrow fired with a rank 6 attack.

Second, I think line-of-sight is a show stopper for the introduction of ammo. Hills, tree, buildings, and rocks need to provide some sort of cover (full or partial) as a defense against ranged weapons.
Stilachio Thrax
My hopes/suggestions for ranged/ammo:

1) The quiver/arrow setup seems fine, as long as there are different feats that allow walking while firing (regular damage), running and firing (reduced damage) and stationary and fire (high damage).

2) Get rid of the Charge Gem/Charge nonsense for spell casters and replace with something more thematic like various spell components (ie Sulphur for fire spells). I see the charge gem and it triggers me into thinking this is some crappy generic fantasy MMO. This is an MMO based off of a RPG world/system born out of the greatest RPG line of all time- act accordingly.

3) Add heavy and light crossbows, bolts and associated feats.

4) Add player useable javelins. You can only equip a few at a time (say 6), but they are recovered (with a small chance of destruction each use) when a foe dies and can be re-equipped when not in combat.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Stilachio Thrax
Maxen
Second, I think line-of-sight is a show stopper for the introduction of ammo. Hills, tree, buildings, and rocks need to provide some sort of cover (full or partial) as a defense against ranged weapons.

I cannot agree with this enough!
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
You are a Troll
Stilachio Thrax
Maxen
Second, I think line-of-sight is a show stopper for the introduction of ammo. Hills, tree, buildings, and rocks need to provide some sort of cover (full or partial) as a defense against ranged weapons.

I cannot agree with this enough!

Cover needs to provide protection and/or damage reduction for ALL non-AOE attacks and expendables. Polar Ray, Holy Light, Glittering Blast, Wire Bolos and everything else that is single target with range.

In regards to Mage & Cleric Charges - yes, all attacks, including Melee and Self effects need to use charges. Enough with the Mage Tanking already.
Decius
Orisons and cantrips and bows already had a nerf for not needing ammo. I suspect the players who don't use rogue or fighter feats will complain loudly when that is reversed. Although to be fair, the 10-120% buff for beneficial effects warrants some added cost.

Some ammunition is clearly intended to add keywords not otherwise available (like Cold Iron). I don't think having those keywords interact with the target is in the roadmap. Given that one of the reasons to use better ammo isn't in the game, should a carrot be added to the more exotic ammo types?
Schedim
Stilachio Thrax
My hopes/suggestions for ranged/ammo:

2) Get rid of the Charge Gem/Charge nonsense for spell casters and replace with something more thematic like various spell components (ie Sulphur for fire spells). I see the charge gem and it triggers me into thinking this is some crappy generic fantasy MMO. This is an MMO based off of a RPG world/system born out of the greatest RPG line of all time- act accordingly.

Upvote this a thousand times, or at least rename them to spell pouch or something.

Stilachio Thrax
4) Add player useable javelins. You can only equip a few at a time (say 6), but they are recovered (with a small chance of destruction each use) when a foe dies and can be re-equipped when not in combat.

interesting idea! Could work similar for throwing axes too
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
Seraph
There's an intrinsic problem with rebalancing things around ammunition.

Case 1: You leave the strength of every cantrip, orison, and archery attack the same as it is now. This creates a situation where, based on your class, you're now paying ammunition just to use attacks that are balanced with attacks that don't need ammunition. This is a Very Bad Deal, especially for wizards and clerics who will need to work a second stat to get reasonable weapon attacks.

Case 2: You buff cantrips, orisons, and archery attacks to make them better than non-ammunition attacks to justify the additional cost. This creates a situation where characters that belong to well-equipped and active settlements and thus are able to brings loads of ammunition to every fight are just stronger than other characters. This is a Very Bad Deal for people who want to operate independently or in small groups.

Personally I'm not sure there is a good way to handle this, except to suggest that ammunition is not required at all but, if you slot some, it might provide a circumstantial bonus by providing special keywords (like cold iron, silvered, etc, or even changing your damage type to fire or something) on your attacks that help against certain monsters.
Seraph
Cleric of Sarenrae
Brighthaven
Flari-Merchant
Decius
Orisons and cantrips and bows already had a nerf for not needing ammo. I suspect the players who don't use rogue or fighter feats will complain loudly when that is reversed. Although to be fair, the 10-120% buff for beneficial effects warrants some added cost.

Some ammunition is clearly intended to add keywords not otherwise available (like Cold Iron). I don't think having those keywords interact with the target is in the roadmap. Given that one of the reasons to use better ammo isn't in the game, should a carrot be added to the more exotic ammo types?
I agree that it is unlikely we will see a hookup between "specialized ammunition" and actual creatures that it can be used against very soon. Seems to me that if equivalent cost between that ammo and regular/Tier is equal or pretty close, then no carrot is needed. If there is a markedly higher cost for the exotic then there should be a temporary carrot. If one half of exotics can be used to advantage (silver vs undead, i.e.) then, again, no carrot required.

There is still the circumstance that the exotic components are actually less expensive to craft in some cases for some characters.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Schedim
Seraph
Case 2: You buff cantrips, orisons, and archery attacks to make them better than non-ammunition attacks to justify the additional cost. This creates a situation where characters that belong to well-equipped and active settlements and thus are able to brings loads of ammunition to every fight are just stronger than other characters. This is a Very Bad Deal for people who want to operate independently or in small groups.
quote]

I think the design goal of this game makes it less of a bug and more of a feature. and I say this as someone whio wants to play more or less solo…
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
 
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