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EE 14

MidknightDiamond
A lot of people already just flat out QUIT playing archers when their damage was 'balanced' to reflect the lack of ammo. This just doesn't seem like it'd be something to draw anyone back to it or inspire people to make them in the first place. On top of that, you may very well have people give up their wizards, clerics or rogues over it too - lumping them in the same boat as archers have been for so long.

I think we do need ammo, but I think very careful care and consideration needs to go into its implementation so that more don't join the ranks of having "given up" and to draw back those that have previously given up to trying it again.

It doesn't have to be easy, it doesn't have to be a "gimmie" but it does need to be reasonable for someone when they sit back and say: "I'll have to get all these mats to make the ammo, and it will take time, is it worth it compared to just going with melee?"

Questions to consider in that - how many times does an archer/wizard/cleric fire a shot in a given battle? In an escalation? How long does 100 arrows last? What's the actual damage curve difference between matching Tier ammo and scavenged ammo? Is it so severe that scavenged will only ever be used in the utmost of desperation? It's reasonable to expect a longbow or shortbow user to have a secondary melee weapon, as well as clerics… how reasonable is it to expect that mages, with cloth armor, should now HAVE to train in melee too?
Aurora Silverstar, Pathfinder University Quartermaster & Explorer
Kiernan Silverstar, Aurora's lazy & good-for-nothing younger brother who just likes to blow things up.

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Auriga
With honesty, at least in the spell casting field, I would really look at a few spells that would not need ammo period. Some combat spells etc for mages, heals for clerics etc

I know the number crunchers will add their own two copper at some point.
Flari-Merchant
Auriga
With honesty, at least in the spell casting field, I would really look at a few spells that would not need ammo period. Some combat spells etc for mages, heals for clerics etc

I know the number crunchers will add their own two copper at some point.
As far as I know, top bars will not use ammo. Just cantrips(bottom bar).
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Flari-Merchant
Also rather than quit if it is an unreasonable result, I have faith that severe unpopularity would give "The Guys" incentive to probably adjust things. It is going to need long term testing to balance in any case, I'm sure. There are too many factors to get right, after all.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Maxen
I'm just going to throw this out there as a counter point to the talk on the "cost" or "tax" on ammo. First, for any tabletop player, you know you had a good (or mean) GM when he made you keep track of ammo and buy it when you were out. And yes, I know this isn't tabletop, but PC gamers in general have become too used to (or spoiled by) the unrealistic game play of archers who shoot continually and never run out of ammo. If you want to talk about a trade off between melee and ranged, consider armor durability. If archers are no longer absolutely rooted and you take advantage of your mobility and distance, you should be less likely to die, compared to melee fighters.

I never stopped playing my archers and none of the proposed mechanics have made me greatly concerned yet. We'll play test it and see how it works.

What does concern me is an ammo "cost" for clerics and wizards. These powers are divine and arcane. Someone mentioned 'mana' above. I think it's more within the spirit of fantasy that cleric and wizard orisons and cantrips draw on a casters pool of mystical energy rather than a defined power source. Kind of like being told that ones connection the Force is determined by how many midichlorians they have in their body. BLASHPHEMY!!! smile

I'm not sure what the right answer is for clerics and wizards right now, but I do think the wrong answer is some form of ammo.
Decius
Bob
Since ammo will add to the damage an attack does, using ammo for melee-range cantrips and orisons will actually boost the damage those attacks do from what they're doing now. The ammo portion of the balancing equations is separate from range or any other advantages/disadvantages, so all ammo-using attacks will be affected pretty similarly, regardless of range.

Enforcing the ammo requirement for Devourer's Caress will likely help limit the ability to just keep firing it off repeatedly, particularly with the occasional need to reload, but the added damage based on ammo quality will probably make up for that. I'm not 100% certain yet exactly how imbalanced that specific attack is, or if it's perhaps more that it's just getting used particularly well, but I've got it on the list to take a closer look at when I can. The deeper question with it is whether our balance formulas aren't giving proper weight to some of its effects, or possibly even if there's something about the magnitude of its effects or the particular combination of effects that make the balance formulas just plain not apply properly.

The unbalance of DC comes from the fact that if it only had the 'heal to self' part, it would still be an attack that many people wanted. Compare to Channel Positive Energy: Heal, before it got buffed.
Tyncale
There are a lot of systems being implemented right now, all of which have to prove that they:

* Add to the depth of the game;
* are sustainable;
* add to the overall fun.

So you need 1) Feedback, 2) Balancing and 3)iterating on a feature to get it right.

However my biggest worry here is that the playerpopulation is currently too low, too hardcore and too entrenched to reliably offer the first, while at the same time the Development team is too small to really put a lot of time into the second and third, since they are so busy with adding new systems (which is cool). I think the development of PFO has suffered from this from the get go.

So I am afraid we may be stuck with some unpopular, unbalanced systems for longer then is healthy for the development of the game.

I have no solution other then allowing the ToT to grind their teeth on these systems. Which could be too soon.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
You are a Troll
Tyncale
There are a lot of systems being implemented right now, all of which have to prove that they:

* Add to the depth of the game;
* are sustainable;
* add to the overall fun.

So you need 1) Feedback, 2) Balancing and 3)iterating on a feature to get it right.

However my biggest worry here is that the playerpopulation is currently too low, too hardcore and too entrenched to reliably offer the first, while at the same time the Development team is too small to really put a lot of time into the second and third, since they are so busy with adding new systems (which is cool). I think the development of PFO has suffered from this from the get go.

So I am afraid we may be stuck with some unpopular, unbalanced systems for longer then is healthy for the development of the game.

I have no solution other then allowing the ToT to grind their teeth on these systems. Which could be too soon.

Well said.
Bunibuni
Since DC requires being in melee range and wizards melee AC is much lower than most other armors that is a spell that requires some thinking in using. It's great against mobs that are lower level than you, pretty good against a handful of foes that are your level and can be very dangerous to try to use against a single foe of higher level than you. So I don't think it is that unbalanced.

Bob
Enforcing the ammo requirement for Devourer's Caress will likely help limit the ability to just keep firing it off repeatedly, particularly with the occasional need to reload, but the added damage based on ammo quality will probably make up for that. I'm not 100% certain yet exactly how imbalanced that specific attack is, or if it's perhaps more that it's just getting used particularly well, but I've got it on the list to take a closer look at when I can. The deeper question with it is whether our balance formulas aren't giving proper weight to some of its effects, or possibly even if there's something about the magnitude of its effects or the particular combination of effects that make the balance formulas just plain not apply properly.
Crafting! Gathering! Monster Killing! Exploring! Politicking! That's us in a nutshell! Ranged Attackers, crafters and gatherers come join the Holy Magicks company based out of High Road. Our main motto is "Death Thru Superior Fire Powers!"
Bunibuni
Player housing isn't something I feel any need to bring into the game at the moment. Other things are more important to my mind like Alliances and Alignment system and dungeons.

Having said that, one thing I would like to see some day is the ability for a party to go into a room at an Inn or Tavern, by clicking on a door, and disappear from the main map while the party members appear in a room. And that Local Chat would then be set for only those in that room or it activates a Private Team Chat feature for those in that room.

It would be a Great way for those party members without mumble or TeamSpeak or whatever to hold a private conversation that can't be overheard by others nearby.
It would allow groups to gather in one spot without being noticed by anyone else who is in hex and wonder what they are all doing there.
It would allow folks to do "secret" trades without everyone standing around in front of a bank, which runs the risk of being attacked there and again brings in the curious to know what's going on.

Of course, player housing could do all this too, I guess. Being able to set access to your home varying from "party members only", settlement members only, alliance members only, only those with a personal invite [ one time or always], etc, just like the settings on the bank. Your character would then disappear from the main map, the local chat setting would only cover those inside your home. Having access to your own personal vault in your own home, and not the settlement vault, would be nice too. You could also set it so that those who have access to your home could use it too. That would take care of a problem we are currently having where one of my characters makes gusher kits but can't put it into the settlement vault at the bank because he is a member of a different but allied settlement, so he can't make then available to allied characters when he isn't around to hand them out.

WWAAAYYYYYYY down the road at some not yet seen future build, it might be nice to have that the alignment of your character and its class[es] set up would set the ambiance or design of your home. So a LG mage's home would look totally different than a CE mage's home. A CG character whose levels are such that they are 60% mage, 25% cleric, 10% rogue and 5% fighter would blend all those classes in that proportion and would still be different than the NG character who is the same percentage of class set up. And as you change the percentage of your character classes or even move from one Tier to the next, the house reflects that change. And that is going to take a whole lot of artwork which is why it would be wayyyyyy down the road.

And also include a "self-love" wall or garden of memories with plaques or statues commemorating maxing out various achievements: Goblin Killer 10, Elite Ogre Slayer 10, etc. That would also help keep the home a bit different from anyone else's.
Crafting! Gathering! Monster Killing! Exploring! Politicking! That's us in a nutshell! Ranged Attackers, crafters and gatherers come join the Holy Magicks company based out of High Road. Our main motto is "Death Thru Superior Fire Powers!"
 
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