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EE 14

You are a Troll
WOW - you wimped out on nerfing Devourers Caress before you even gave it a try huh? Very sad. Your changes aren't going to make any difference at all, especially with 1 rank in Negative Mastery. I don't think I have ever seen you flip-flop so quickly on an issue Bob - must have gotten quite a few e-mails about it, or at least a few from certain special people.
Edam
Bob
After looking into it further, I'm trying something different out on the Chill Touch/Devourer's Caress combo. Instead of a cooldown on Devourer's Caress, I'm going to try having Chill Touch only have a 50% chance of applying Drained. That makes it a lot less predictable, so it's more likely that you'll have to adjust your strategy depending on how things go. In exchange, Chill Touch gets to apply a bit more Drained when it does work, and will always do a bit more damage.

However, taking the cooldown off on Devourer's Caress means it gets a bit less Cure and deals a bit less Exhausted. That reduction alone would just limit the usefulness of the combo to slightly less tough mobs, but with the added randomness on applying Drained, the combo should be unpredictable enough to be interesting, while still remaining reasonably effective when it works. I'm also less worried about being able to spam a secondary attack when the condition it depends on isn't so dependable.

That sounds more workable. To be honest a cooldown on the DC itself would probably make it hard to justify slotting the wand at all.

The good thing about PFO as highlighted by the CT/DC combo is it breaks out of the idiotic iconic roles that date back to Gygax and takes us away from that tank/healer/damage-dealer trinity nonsense so popular of late. If CC/DC is actually overpowered, of course it needs taming - but do not even consider eliminating just because some people are rigidly stuck in the traditional iconic roles and already outdated trinity nonsense.

On a more constructive note. If you do still have a problem with indefinite spamming of DC you could always consider a slight increase in stamina drain, thus allowing people to throw off a few in a row to get out of a tight spot but not keep it up indefinitely.
Edam
Bob
[

Charged and Somatic Staves/Wands add Extraplanar instead of Intelligent for T3, and roughly half of the cantrips add Extraplanar at rank 6 to match.

My bad …

To be honest, I use a T2 quickening staff on my cleric to get easy access to haste for better tanking but have never really had much to do with the other wizard staffs. That will teach me not to do my homework.
Bob
You are a Troll
WOW - you wimped out on nerfing Devourers Caress before you even gave it a try huh? Very sad. Your changes aren't going to make any difference at all, especially with 1 rank in Negative Mastery. I don't think I have ever seen you flip-flop so quickly on an issue Bob - must have gotten quite a few e-mails about it, or at least a few from certain special people.

Like I said, my desire wasn't to nerf that combo, or make it unworkable, just to make it more interesting/risky to apply. Once the actual in-game result of the cooldown became apparent, it clearly wasn't the effect I was looking for. The Drain 50% option added the unpredictibility I wanted, and removing the cooldown gave me room to further cut down the percentage of health recovered by Devourer's Caress.

Also, don't underestimate the capriciousness of the random number generator. In testing it out, I had multiple occasions where Chill Touch didn't apply Drained until the 4th try, and one that waited until the 5th. The odds aren't exactly high for going that long (or longer), but it'll probably happen at the worst possible time.
Bob
Edam
On a more constructive note. If you do still have a problem with indefinite spamming of DC you could always consider a slight increase in stamina drain, thus allowing people to throw off a few in a row to get out of a tight spot but not keep it up indefinitely.

That's definitely one of my backup plans, but I really don't mind some spamming of DC, as long as you can't recover too much health before reapplying Drained, and as long as that reapplication isn't 100% dependable. A brief bit of opportunistic spamming can feel very rewarding, where regularly scheduled spamming can get old fast.
Bob
Duffy Swiftshadow
Thanks, I guess what I'm slowly hinting at is that economic power will always make or break a war, but it will rarely matter in a particular battle. And for any incidental conflict, it will never matter at all. I also personally feel that trying to balance around the economy is a flawed premise when the coin in the economy and the economy itself isn't directly controlled. Which basically boils down to ammo costs rarely mattering in a particular fight that actually matters. By the time the cost of ammo matters you've probably already reached "losing" conditions (economically if not territory wise) and it's just a matter of time. To me the balance matters way more in the moment of conflict than in the theoretical logistics war surrounding the conflict.

I don't think ammo in general will be in short supply, but I do think the best ammo will be in short enough supply that judicious use will matter, and that the more economically powerful of those groups will be able to supply significantly higher quantities of such ammunition for important battles. In particular, +4/5 ammo still won't be common, but will provide a noticeable difference, and the party rich enough (and logistically organized enough) to be completely stocked with that throughout a battle will have a distinct advantage. They will, however, have to sacrifice other priorities to do so.

Duffy Swiftshadow
What I keep coming back to in my head is the pre-ranged nerf days: if ammo isn't actually a real inhibitor beyond adding another thing to gear costs, then what we're really saying is that the movement and reload mechanics are the only thing that was needed to balance the old advantages of range. So if we're looking at ranged attacks with average or better ammo being comparable or better than back in the pre-nerf days why won't it be just as unbalanced since the "cost" is an abstract component that really doesn't impact moments in the field? I'm having a hard time solving that part unless we assume ammo will be scarce or a precious resource regularly while out in the field.

Ranged attacks still get cut back a bit in exchange for being ranged, and they'll also be more affected by line of sight than melee attacks are. We could certainly balance combat using just those and other related factors, as many games do, but we wanted ammo to play an important part in driving the economy. Best way to do that, and keep it interesting, is to make it so that better, more expensive ammo makes a significant difference in battles, and to make it pretty cost-prohibitive to use the best possible ammo very often. It does accentuate the economic aspect of combat, but better supplies won't guarantee victory.
Flari-Merchant
You are a Troll
WOW - you wimped out on nerfing Devourers Caress before you even gave it a try huh? Very sad. Your changes aren't going to make any difference at all, especially with 1 rank in Negative Mastery. I don't think I have ever seen you flip-flop so quickly on an issue Bob - must have gotten quite a few e-mails about it, or at least a few from certain special people.
Every forum needs it's own particular Disgruntled Troll.

Give things a chance to be tried. Please turn down the salty paranoia. More can be done if more needs be…
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Giorgio
Bob,

I spent a few hours yesterday organizing the vaults in Forgeholm and trying to set up permission/access levels, one thing the drove me up the walls was the fact that the color coding system is not user friendly for classifying stuff by tier, as it seems to be set up by value or rarity (I cant figure it out).

Having the colors by Tier (1-White; 2-Green & Blue, 3- Purple & Yellow… ) would be REALY helpful in organizing the vaults, in crafting, in trades, for the Auction House and a lot more. I know its on the roadmap for March 2018, but if it can be "bumped" up in the priority list that would be really, really nice. smile
First Elder Durin Steelforge; Leader of Forgeholm; Founder of Steelforge Engineering Company

PM Giorgo on Paizo Forums
PM Admin George on Commonwealth of the Free Highlands
Bob
Giorgio
Having the colors by Tier (1-White; 2-Green & Blue, 3- Purple & Yellow… ) would be REALY helpful in organizing the vaults, in crafting, in trades, for the Auction House and a lot more. I know its on the roadmap for March 2018, but if it can be "bumped" up in the priority list that would be really, really nice. smile

As one of our quicker tasks (aside from discussions on exactly what the change should be), that's one of the tasks more likely to get done whenever we find ourselves ahead. Hopefully we'll be back in that state soon.
Decius
Bob
You are a Troll
WOW - you wimped out on nerfing Devourers Caress before you even gave it a try huh? Very sad. Your changes aren't going to make any difference at all, especially with 1 rank in Negative Mastery. I don't think I have ever seen you flip-flop so quickly on an issue Bob - must have gotten quite a few e-mails about it, or at least a few from certain special people.

Like I said, my desire wasn't to nerf that combo, or make it unworkable, just to make it more interesting/risky to apply. Once the actual in-game result of the cooldown became apparent, it clearly wasn't the effect I was looking for. The Drain 50% option added the unpredictibility I wanted, and removing the cooldown gave me room to further cut down the percentage of health recovered by Devourer's Caress.

Also, don't underestimate the capriciousness of the random number generator. In testing it out, I had multiple occasions where Chill Touch didn't apply Drained until the 4th try, and one that waited until the 5th. The odds aren't exactly high for going that long (or longer), but it'll probably happen at the worst possible time.
The odds of failing N 50% chances in a row are .50^n. Four in a row is 1/16, or more likely than rolling a natural 1 on a d20.

I don't put characters in routine positions where they risk dying on a single botched routine roll.
 
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