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Ammunition

Paddy Fitzpatrick
Stilachio Thrax
I agree with Edam too. Respecs are tempting, and there are plenty of XP expenditures I'd like back. But that is not what the game was developed as or sold as. Adapt and adjust is how you move forward.

Well perhaps this is a discussion for a different thread. Still, this so called adapt and adjust attitude is rather patronizing I think. It's one thing to have a basic design or idea on the roadmap but then the implementation details come in and they still can easily make things that we were told would be viable unviable. This may be one of those cases. I hope it isn't, but it could be.

For wizards for example, I will try it out and hope for the best but this basically encourages the chill touch to devourers carress cheese that is already too powerful. Why use ammo based attacks at all really when you have that? It doesn't help that most of this puts melee classes in the top dog spot, if for no other reason that they don't require dedicated Crafters just for ammo so they are lower maintenance. I think that will create it's own imbalance and have all ranged attacks become too underpowered by comparison. This also doesn't take into account the strength of certain melee builds that we're already very strong now being even better because they aren't bogged down like every other type of class is.

I get the desire to make sure systems are abuse resistant, but people also can't toss out the Boogeyman of power gaming or just say get used to it. In a game like this it's not that simple, especially at this stage where a single patch can nullify years of hard work in one fell swoop. I am just hoping this will still be a fun enough system for ranged characters to play, both old and new.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bob
Paddy Fitzpatrick
For wizards for example, I will try it out and hope for the best but this basically encourages the chill touch to devourers carress cheese that is already too powerful. Why use ammo based attacks at all really when you have that?

Minor point, but those two attacks actually use ammo. The cantrips that don't use ammo are the ones you get from the Mastery feats, like Burning Ray.

Paddy Fitzpatrick
It doesn't help that most of this puts melee classes in the top dog spot, if for no other reason that they don't require dedicated Crafters just for ammo so they are lower maintenance.

Part of the thinking here was that ammo is generally (though not completely) associated with range, and ranged characters can more easily get out of combat without dying. In theory, that means that melee characters need to replace their expensive gear slightly more often, while the ranged characters instead need to keep replenishing relatively inexpensive ammo regularly. Not saying those two balance out perfectly, just that it helps balance things from a crafter-need perspective.

Paddy Fitzpatrick
I get the desire to make sure systems are abuse resistant, but people also can't toss out the Boogeyman of power gaming or just say get used to it. In a game like this it's not that simple, especially at this stage where a single patch can nullify years of hard work in one fell swoop. I am just hoping this will still be a fun enough system for ranged characters to play, both old and new.

We try to avoid things that would make previous choices non-viable, but admittedly sometimes we have to head toward something like "that feat you chose is still perfectly viable, but you'll have to adapt your usage of it somewhat, and you may want some other feats to balance it out."
Bob
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Were you able to do something about firing on <invulnerable> targets that get stuck when they can't finish their proper moves to get set to attack, like often happens in gusher fighting?

In addition to becoming vulnerable more quickly, you're attacks will also be disabled. You can go ahead and queue up an attack, but it won't happen (or use ammo) until the target becomes vulnerable.
Stilachio Thrax
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Stilachio Thrax
I agree with Edam too. Respecs are tempting, and there are plenty of XP expenditures I'd like back. But that is not what the game was developed as or sold as. Adapt and adjust is how you move forward.

Well perhaps this is a discussion for a different thread. Still, this so called adapt and adjust attitude is rather patronizing I think. It's one thing to have a basic design or idea on the roadmap but then the implementation details come in and they still can easily make things that we were told would be viable unviable. This may be one of those cases. I hope it isn't, but it could be.

For wizards for example, I will try it out and hope for the best but this basically encourages the chill touch to devourers carress cheese that is already too powerful. Why use ammo based attacks at all really when you have that? It doesn't help that most of this puts melee classes in the top dog spot, if for no other reason that they don't require dedicated Crafters just for ammo so they are lower maintenance. I think that will create it's own imbalance and have all ranged attacks become too underpowered by comparison. This also doesn't take into account the strength of certain melee builds that we're already very strong now being even better because they aren't bogged down like every other type of class is.

I get the desire to make sure systems are abuse resistant, but people also can't toss out the Boogeyman of power gaming or just say get used to it. In a game like this it's not that simple, especially at this stage where a single patch can nullify years of hard work in one fell swoop. I am just hoping this will still be a fun enough system for ranged characters to play, both old and new.

I wasn't trying to be patronizing. Each of my characters has invested XP in feats that will require ammo, and in one case one will need both arrows and charges. The bow attacks will go largely unused across the board, and outside of heal orisons, my use of a focus will be severely curtailed. I have a wizard-ish alt that will probably never be anything more than a more colorful T1 gatherer, largely due to the ammo cost in the long term. Respecing would be a *huge* boon to my characters, but I still feel it is the wrong thing for the game. I'm putting my trust in GW to adjust ammo as needed as this goes forward on live to balance fun, fairness, and costs.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Flari-Merchant
Bob
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Were you able to do something about firing on <invulnerable> targets that get stuck when they can't finish their proper moves to get set to attack, like often happens in gusher fighting?

In addition to becoming vulnerable more quickly, you're attacks will also be disabled. You can go ahead and queue up an attack, but it won't happen (or use ammo) until the target becomes vulnerable.
that will take away a great amount of frustration. Thank You.
Flari-Merchant
I too will trust Paizo to adjust and tweak things that need it as we move forward. I won't threaten leaving or anything like that in my statements for whichever general direction that the development takes, because something so drastic shouldn't be edged either way by only a very few voices, so such statements should be relatively powerless.

Remember, however, that the underlying strongest statement was that the only sacred thing (sacrosanct) was the XP that we earned as we continuously subscribed.

So, for now, I'll trust that all of this comes together into an even more pleasant play experience. That I didn't spend an outrageous amount of XP for things that seemed great but become trivialized by unexpected changes…
Bob
I'm rethinking the target I was working toward when balancing the ammo-based attacks. The overall idea was for matching ammo to result in damage similar to what melee characters were doing, for relatively cheap ammo to result in damage similar to what ammo-using characters do now, and for both salvage and makeshift ammo to result in doing quite a bit less damage than is done now.

The underlying assumption there was that it's reasonable for ammo-users to have to start paying ammo costs just to stay even with current performance, in exchange for the flexibility to do significantly more damage. That puts a pretty high value on flexibility, one I'm starting to think is too high in this case. For one thing, the cost and hassle factor of making high-tier ammo mean it's pretty expensive to exercise that flexibility.

What I'm thinking about moving to is something where anyone using crafted ammo, even T1 +0 ammo, will be at least slightly more effective than they are now. That feels fair in that it tells everyone "Hey, you have to start paying for ammo, but you'll be more effective in return." However, it breaks the goal of having matching ammo result in melee-like damage. Instead, I'd target saying that "expensive" ammo relative to your level will provide something close to melee-like damage. For T1 +0/1 characters, T1 +4/5 ammo will seem expensive. For T2 +2/3 characters, T2 +2/3 ammo will seem expensive, and they'll have the option of spending slightly more to be a little more effective. For T3 +3 characters, T3 +0/1 ammo will seem expensive, and they'll still have the option of spending a lot more to do significantly more damage.

That would also mean that T1 characters would generally be about as effective as they are now with salvaged ammo, T2 characters just a tiny bit less effective, and T3 characters more noticeably less effective . Everyone would be less effective than usual when using makeshift arrows, but the difference would still be relatively small. Enough to make you bummed that you ran out of arrows, but not so much that you feel useless.

How does that sound?
Edam
What about creating a T3 quiver/charge-gem that does not hold arrows/charges but instead creates an indefinite amount of "slightly better than makeshift" ammo ?

Alternatively creating a T3 quiver/charge-gem that increases the quality of the ammo it holds by +1 or maybe +2 .
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bob
I'm rethinking the target I was working toward when balancing the ammo-based attacks. The overall idea was for matching ammo to result in damage similar to what melee characters were doing, for relatively cheap ammo to result in damage similar to what ammo-using characters do now, and for both salvage and makeshift ammo to result in doing quite a bit less damage than is done now.

The underlying assumption there was that it's reasonable for ammo-users to have to start paying ammo costs just to stay even with current performance, in exchange for the flexibility to do significantly more damage. That puts a pretty high value on flexibility, one I'm starting to think is too high in this case. For one thing, the cost and hassle factor of making high-tier ammo mean it's pretty expensive to exercise that flexibility.

What I'm thinking about moving to is something where anyone using crafted ammo, even T1 +0 ammo, will be at least slightly more effective than they are now. That feels fair in that it tells everyone "Hey, you have to start paying for ammo, but you'll be more effective in return." However, it breaks the goal of having matching ammo result in melee-like damage. Instead, I'd target saying that "expensive" ammo relative to your level will provide something close to melee-like damage. For T1 +0/1 characters, T1 +4/5 ammo will seem expensive. For T2 +2/3 characters, T2 +2/3 ammo will seem expensive, and they'll have the option of spending slightly more to be a little more effective. For T3 +3 characters, T3 +0/1 ammo will seem expensive, and they'll still have the option of spending a lot more to do significantly more damage.

That would also mean that T1 characters would generally be about as effective as they are now with salvaged ammo, T2 characters just a tiny bit less effective, and T3 characters more noticeably less effective . Everyone would be less effective than usual when using makeshift arrows, but the difference would still be relatively small. Enough to make you bummed that you ran out of arrows, but not so much that you feel useless.

How does that sound?

I'd be willing to try that out. I like that better.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Flari-Merchant
I'm willing to try out anything. The damage done is not the only significant change to ranged combat and we won't know the full impact of any of it until we are all messing around with these changes, anyway… smile
 
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