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Ammunition

Lisa Stevens
You are a Troll
I agree, and the Modelling Assumptions, when created by someone who does not actually play the game on a daily basis, is exactly how you end up with some real unbalanced stuff. If it was possible for Lisa to be impartial - and I am honestly not sure if it is - then she should have a lot of direct input into those modelling assumptions as she is the one person on the dev team who actually have a wealth of in-game experience.

I am constantly giving Bob my observations from playing the game, not just things I see with myself but also others I am adventuring with. I try to be impartial as best I can. I can say that many of my character concepts have become nerfed because I brought to Bob's attention overpowered combos or attacks that do too much damage. I also try to give Bob as balanced a viewpoint as I can muster. Hopefully that is good enough.

-Lisa
Bob
Bunibuni
And speaking of dungeons … any clue as to when we will finally have any?

Dungeons are still on our very-long-term plans, but they're not on the roadmap at this point, so we don't have an ETA for them.
Bob
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Can you tell us what you are thinking the difference between broadhead and bodkin arrows will be?

The design for that is that broadhead arrows would add a Slashing keyword, and that some bow attacks would have Slashing instead of Piercing as a keyword. That might be connected to attacks that cause Bleeding, or they might be attack variants that have a slightly different effect. However, we'll likely have to keep things simpler in this initial version of ammunition support, so I'll probably just give slightly more expensive ammunition variants like broadhead a small bonus over other variants for now.
Bob
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
@ Bob
So far along this Roadmap, my assumptions have been terrible on how the mechanicals will work for certain things. Just want to double check…
There are multiple examples for "arrows" at each Tier. Some are designed to be specialized, I am sure, in the future but not yet. Can we assume that for now for example that Cold Iron Arrows and Steel Arrows and Silver arrows (all T1) will have the same stats(dmg, range, etc…smile? Can we expect the same for T2 and T3?

As with my answer for bodkin vs. broadhead, there are designs for the specialized ammunition to do specific things, but for now, they'll probably have similar stats, with possibly just some temporary minor boosts to justify the added expense for those variants. When we get the specialization work in, I'd pull out those temp bonuses in favor of the specialty bonuses.
Flari-Merchant
Thanks, Bob.
Bob
There have been a couple mentions of the possibility of "makeshift" ammunition, and we've been tossing around possible implementation of that. Basically, any time you finish off the currently loaded ammunition, you'd run through the reload delay, regardless of whether or not you have any additional ammunition stored in your ammo container. If you have more ammo, that represents the time spent transferring it from stored to loaded. If you don't have more ammo, then it represents the time finding/creating 1 piece of makeshift ammo. Makeshift ammo wouldn't be significantly worse than regular low-end ammo when used (it would have no bonuses for use, where T1 +0 ammo would have at least a small bonus, just enough to bring rank 1 attacks into a reasonable range), except that you'd effectively have to reload after each use. This way we don't really have to keep track of not-really-existant ammo (we just pretend "no ammo" is the same as "one piece of makeshift ammo" and force reload anytime an attack leaves you with "no ammo," which you already had), but there's still a small penalty for having let yourself run out completely.

If we went this route, it would be on top of mobs dropping small amounts of T1 +0 ammo, so you'd still be picking up some loadable ammo along the way. If used sparingly, you could avoid using makeshift ammo except for emergencies.

Thoughts?

Flari-Merchant
Bob
There have been a couple mentions of the possibility of "makeshift" ammunition, and we've been tossing around possible implementation of that. Basically, any time you finish off the currently loaded ammunition, you'd run through the reload delay, regardless of whether or not you have any additional ammunition stored in your ammo container. If you have more ammo, that represents the time spent transferring it from stored to loaded. If you don't have more ammo, then it represents the time finding/creating 1 piece of makeshift ammo. Makeshift ammo wouldn't be significantly worse than regular low-end ammo when used (it would have no bonuses for use, where T1 +0 ammo would have at least a small bonus, just enough to bring rank 1 attacks into a reasonable range), except that you'd effectively have to reload after each use. This way we don't really have to keep track of not-really-existant ammo (we just pretend "no ammo" is the same as "one piece of makeshift ammo" and force reload anytime an attack leaves you with "no ammo," which you already had), but there's still a small penalty for having let yourself run out completely.

If we went this route, it would be on top of mobs dropping small amounts of T1 +0 ammo, so you'd still be picking up some loadable ammo along the way. If used sparingly, you could avoid using makeshift ammo except for emergencies.

Thoughts?
I am for it. Much better to be able to contribute somehow than not at all if a character is built as a one trick pony, which many are (by xp gain default) when they are fairly new or have pretty low encumbrance capacity.
HowardWdW
I don't think the implications of ammo have been fully thought through. I do not think you have actually tried to scale the incredible quantity of gathering that will be necessary to provide enough ammo, whether it is wizard/cleric or archer. Gathering essence is the slowest and most boring gathering type, and the amounts needed to craft any quantity of quality ammo will drive me insane.

Let's just take the basic starter situation. At level 1 Lightning arc takes 4 shots to kill a goblin. So to simply do the first kill 5 cultists…20 charges of the 30 a new player is provided. The continuing quests require killing 10 and 20 of various creatures. But let's just cut to the chase. 8000 kills to reach focus expert 10, and let's say that's 4 shots per kill. That's 32000 charges. Let's be absurd and say these are all just simple charges.

32000/250 per recipe = 128 recipes. 3 azure and 3 sepia crystals per recipe is a total of 64 batches each of sepia and azure crystals or 2880 esoteric, 2275 ordered and 1280 antithesis essence plus 704 lesser vital and 704 lesser numinous gems. And you can't count on T1 PCs having gusher kits or being able to defend themselves against the waves of monster a gusher would call. But even if you did they would be gathering at max around 250 essence per hour so that's around 26 hours of gathering time for the essence and yet more for the gems. In reality gathering time will be much longer.

And that is just 1 character with the lowest level ammo. Sorry, it just is not realistic.

Increase the ammo output per recipe, or decrease it and make a "charge" slotted into your charge holder have way more uses before it needs to be changed. Perhaps a factor of 5 would make this more realistic.

Although I've been calculating for wizard/cleric, the archer is even worse off. At least for essence you know exactly where to go get the required essence and that's basically what you get from the node and the nodes are everywhere. For archers they need to find wood. Finding large quantities of specific woods is firstly highly geographically dependent and second much harder. Now if you had nodes that were "trees" and just gave wood, it might work better.
Bob
Those ammo requirements will be slightly lowered by the ammo that mobs will drop, and possibly by makeshift ammo if we get that working. Also, if you're running around in a party, since you're getting credit for everyone's kills, you could be getting credit for up to 6 kills for every kill you handle yourself, though obviously things slow down if your party is tackling tougher escalations. Still, it will absolutely take a lot of ammo to get 8000 kills. On the other hand, that number of kills is expected to take place over many months, so the time spent gathering those materials will be spread out as well, hopefully enough to be sustainable. If not, adjustments can be made.
Maxen
Bob
Those ammo requirements will be slightly lowered by the ammo that mobs will drop, and possibly by makeshift ammo if we get that working. Also, if you're running around in a party, since you're getting credit for everyone's kills, you could be getting credit for up to 6 kills for every kill you handle yourself, though obviously things slow down if your party is tackling tougher escalations. Still, it will absolutely take a lot of ammo to get 8000 kills. On the other hand, that number of kills is expected to take place over many months, so the time spent gathering those materials will be spread out as well, hopefully enough to be sustainable. If not, adjustments can be made.

Bob makes a good point here and something that I thInk we often forget because of the low population numbers. This game was never meant to be 'soloed' from a PvE standpoint. Likewise, one character (or even a player without multiple, multiple accounts) was meant to be self-sufficient in gathering, refining, and crafting equipment. What we all suffer from at this time is lack of a viable economy where players trust that if they need cold iron blanks and yew shafts for their bowyer, they can go to the auction house and buy their supplies.

Hopefully supply will be a non-issue in a future state of the game. For now, we should focus on the mechanics of how ammo will work.
 
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