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Clarifications on base camp versus freehold

Tyncale
I haven't really familiarized myself with the details about sieging, but it could be an interesting exercise to see how long it would take for a dedicated Guild to overthrow one of the cities that have accumulated the most wealth.

With this I mean a Guild that through sheer numbers and dedication (Guilds where entire families set alarms in the middle of the night for a raid)will win *every* fight that they undertake, and will not skip *any* opportunity to gain an advantage.

This Guild will have a mixed and matched force of a hundred Tier 2 fighters and harvesters in 16 days and will harvest mats 24/7 from day 1. In groups, with Teamspeak. Each character will have a designated place in this Borg collective and will be utilized to the max. Outposts and Holdings will fall as fast as they can fall. Hexes will be conquered as fast as the game mechanics allow them to be conquered.

Is the fact that a city has 3 million Bulk goods of every kind simply enough to sustain the defense of their city for months if not years just through time-gated limitations of the Siege mechanic? I kinda lost interest in the Siege mechanics since there are no players, no initiatives, no incentives to Siege right now.

However, if that is true, then we all know that there is no way that Goblinworks can allow these accumulations to exist. My scenario of such a Guild is real, but unlikely for the very reasons you state, BL. But if that scenario will never materialize then we have a problem. I do not really see another scenario to break the current stasis, and make this game interesting for players, other then the few that have been trickling now and then.

Some people may hope for the scenario that the current groups will slowly gain strength in numbers and then Wars between those entrenched groups will finally start spicing things up, but I think the trickle is not enough.

We (and Lisa) have been talking about ToTs: a really large infusion of players, fast, is imo the only way to break the stasis and get things rolling. But if the ToT has time-gated Siege mechanics working against them, with veteran players having millions of Bulk goods to ward them off, I do not see how this ToT ever will materialize. Because the world looks so fantastic? The PvE is so great? Or because the keyword-system is so innovative?

For me, ToT = organized Guilds that get enticed to play this game for a chance of glory, that come en masse to this game, with dedication. This game is supposed to be a very good fit for Guilds like that. I do not see a huge mass of individual players all of a sudden get mighty interested in this game, wanting to join one of the powerblocks.

I know that Ryan wanted to grow the numbers over time. But he was not envisioning 10 extra players per week. I think he in fact was envisioning entire Guilds coming over to make their mark in a true Game of Thrones.

TLDR: A humongous accumulation of Bulk Goods should never be an automatic "we are safe from our city falling for at least a year" card. My proposal would be that *any* city falls to a Group that wins every fight, holding and hex, after a month or so. Off course, the moment this losing group starts to round up people and allies(recruit them with gold) and starts to *win* stuff then it can be longer. Bulk goods should not play the ultimate role in this, helped by game mechanics.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Flari-Merchant
Tyncale
"This Guild will have a mixed and matched force of a hundred Tier 2 fighters and harvesters in 16 days and will harvest mats 24/7 from day 1. In groups, with Teamspeak. Each character will have a designated place in this Borg collective and will be utilized to the max. Outposts and Holdings will fall as fast as they can fall. Hexes will be conquered as fast as the game mechanics allow them to be conquered."

Now such a guild would indeed be powerful and probably irresistible to any group in this game as it is right now. They might even be aided in some ways by "other" existing groups and so able to speed their progress against the first target that they set.

My suggestion is that such a group would only realistically be attracted to THIS game to do such things if THIS game was very drastically improved or they were given some other irresistible incentive. I can see it much more realistic for ToT's to be coaxed in their 10s of 1000's to try the game as individuals or small groups of buddies. Smaller guilds. Of those, several 1000 "might" stick with it for awhile. <–At least as things stand now and with what looks like the rest of the Roadmap. That will mean even longer for such an organized group as you describe to form. Not trying to be a Negative Nelly here but just saying what I think.

As for sieges, I have doubts that stress of bulk hoards are what will prevent them from happening. I think it will be more about the extreme expense of sieging and the process itself that will be very difficult to set up and maintain for long enough. City burning wars will be months long things that take a good deal of back-and-forth struggle. Unless there are very few or no defenders…
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Stilachio Thrax
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Tyncale
"This Guild will have a mixed and matched force of a hundred Tier 2 fighters and harvesters in 16 days and will harvest mats 24/7 from day 1. In groups, with Teamspeak. Each character will have a designated place in this Borg collective and will be utilized to the max. Outposts and Holdings will fall as fast as they can fall. Hexes will be conquered as fast as the game mechanics allow them to be conquered."

Now such a guild would indeed be powerful and probably irresistible to any group in this game as it is right now. They might even be aided in some ways by "other" existing groups and so able to speed their progress against the first target that they set.

My suggestion is that such a group would only realistically be attracted to THIS game to do such things if THIS game was very drastically improved or they were given some other irresistible incentive. I can see it much more realistic for ToT's to be coaxed in their 10s of 1000's to try the game as individuals or small groups of buddies. Smaller guilds. Of those, several 1000 "might" stick with it for awhile. <–At least as things stand now and with what looks like the rest of the Roadmap. That will mean even longer for such an organized group as you describe to form. Not trying to be a Negative Nelly here but just saying what I think.

As for sieges, I have doubts that stress of bulk hoards are what will prevent them from happening. I think it will be more about the extreme expense of sieging and the process itself that will be very difficult to set up and maintain for long enough. City burning wars will be months long things that take a good deal of back-and-forth struggle. Unless there are very few or no defenders…

I think that as much as that guild may want to do that, conquering a settlement is only the beginning. You basically destroy the existing settlement to take it, so this new guild now has minimal support for feats and no training whatsoever beyond what the NPC settlements and any potential allies have. They will have to make every building from scratch, or commission others to make them for them. That is a ton of resources they will have to buy or grind. Once they get the buildings up, they need to get holdings and outposts up to support the settlement- again tons of resources to buy or grind. Not to mention sorting out which particular holding/outposts you need and where you need them isn't obvious to those new to the settlement game. Having a lvl 20 settlement is a hell of a lot of work, and even lower level ones are going to require constant attention. This is a good example of "be careful what you wish for, you just may get it."

I think those guilds will get a rush destroying settlements, but quickly grow bored and frustrated when they actually have to build up the settlement they destroyed in order to really progress in the game. And many of those members will actively hate muling bulk around as it isn't exciting or interesting. Those guilds would actually be better off joining an existing settlement that fits their gameplay or set up company holdings and hire out as mercenaries.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Stilachio Thrax
Tyncale
TLDR: A humongous accumulation of Bulk Goods should never be an automatic "we are safe from our city falling for at least a year" card. My proposal would be that *any* city falls to a Group that wins every fight, holding and hex, after a month or so. Off course, the moment this losing group starts to round up people and allies(recruit them with gold) and starts to *win* stuff then it can be longer. Bulk goods should not play the ultimate role in this, helped by game mechanics.

I actually disagree. If a group has the foresight to plan well and manage to save bulk, it should benefit them if besieged (as planning ahead benefited those who were besieged throughout history). High levels of bulk production take a lot of effort and work to utilize, the effort should have a payoff. It has an immediate effect of allowing higher training, but their should be a long-term benefit of being well-supplied as well. With your idea, I'll just wait to attack until the holiday season when people are busy with family and friends and less likely to be able to amount a defense. Poof! Instant settlement for me because your real life was busy.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Flari-Merchant
Just so that what I feel is clear to any readers: I certainly feel that any groups which come into the game should be able to establish their own "spots" whether the they are grouped after coming or before. Whether they find unoccupied lands, make deals or take areas through PVP. There should be a fairly clear path or several paths to follow and succeed at to do so. I am also well aware that this game will never work "right" until PVP (the battle/skirmish/small time kind) is MUCH MORE COMMON. The game's whole concept was designed around it.

On the other hand, taking down a prepared and defended settlement should never be a walk in the park. I am not sure why there is so much animosity aimed at the most active groups in the game or why so many less active or mid sized groups would be so anxious to see an organized "Horde" arrive and take them out.
*Because we are the remnants of the original supporters of the game that won spots in the Land Rush?
*Because we were supporting the game years before DAY ONE of play?
*Because we are still here, have worked hard to still be here and have continued to support this game?

What do you think an organized "Horde" will do first? Will it go after the strongest and most entrenched groups? No, it will go after well placed smaller groups that are easier pickings. It would try and establish a nice foothold while it plays the big groups against each other.

Be careful what you wish for… smile
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Bob
Tyncale
A humongous accumulation of Bulk Goods should never be an automatic "we are safe from our city falling for at least a year" card.

That's why the damage multiplier for Bulk Goods doubles every week. Within 2 months, it's possible to be destroying hundreds of thousands of bulk goods every combat day. At that point, even if the defending settlement can hold out a bit longer, they're much better off considering suing for peace or making a strategic retreat. That's a lot of value to lose each day.
You are a Troll
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Just so that what I feel is clear to any readers: I certainly feel that any groups which come into the game should be able to establish their own "spots" whether the they are grouped after coming or before. Whether they find unoccupied lands, make deals or take areas through PVP. There should be a fairly clear path or several paths to follow and succeed at to do so. I am also well aware that this game will never work "right" until PVP (the battle/skirmish/small time kind) is MUCH MORE COMMON. The game's whole concept was designed around it.

I very much agree, and perhaps the empty settlements are the middle-ground option to allow that to occur? Then we can fight over the hexes that actually produce enough bulk to support a settlement?
Flari-Merchant
You are a Troll
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Just so that what I feel is clear to any readers: I certainly feel that any groups which come into the game should be able to establish their own "spots" whether the they are grouped after coming or before. Whether they find unoccupied lands, make deals or take areas through PVP. There should be a fairly clear path or several paths to follow and succeed at to do so. I am also well aware that this game will never work "right" until PVP (the battle/skirmish/small time kind) is MUCH MORE COMMON. The game's whole concept was designed around it.

I very much agree, and perhaps the empty settlements are the middle-ground option to allow that to occur? Then we can fight over the hexes that actually produce enough bulk to support a settlement?
It would be a good idea for all that own basically empty settlements to get used to the idea that they will be juicy looking to groups of new players that have none.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Tyncale
Thanks for the answers guys. Bob, that was exactly what I hoped to hear, Bulk Goods only go so far in warding off a dedicated Siege. My 1-month rule is probably a bit too harsh. But it sounds as if a dedicated Guild can pull it off in 3 months, unless the Defender manages to rally the entire world to their defenses off course.

Stilachio, I also agree with you in that planning and hoarding should pay off in having a better defense. In a populated world, hoarding will be so much harder when your mules and Holdings get attacked constantly, there should be a serious reward when you pull that off. Unfortunately, the current situation does not reflect that situation: hoarding has been extremely easy for almost 2 years now, there are relatively small groups that have huge hoards which is an unbalance. My fear was that these hoards would be a "stay out of trouble" card for many months up to a year. Hearing Bob, this will not be the case.

As to rebuilding: I think a dedicated Guild that pulls of a Siege will likely have the manpower and Energy to rebuild the settlement too: but I agree that many of such Guilds would prefer the Sieging part and less so the rebuilding part. I guess some of those Guilds will start their first city in a secluded spot, some will try to take over a city with weaker defenses and hoards (Callambea?) and some will completely focus on taking on the biggest fattest fish around, for sports. smile

As long as those huge hoards are not a stay out of trouble card then I am good. I think this should be communicated to the ToT as well, since they may have some questions about that.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
You are a Troll
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
You are a Troll
Bringslite-Dominion Soldier
Just so that what I feel is clear to any readers: I certainly feel that any groups which come into the game should be able to establish their own "spots" whether the they are grouped after coming or before. Whether they find unoccupied lands, make deals or take areas through PVP. There should be a fairly clear path or several paths to follow and succeed at to do so. I am also well aware that this game will never work "right" until PVP (the battle/skirmish/small time kind) is MUCH MORE COMMON. The game's whole concept was designed around it.

I very much agree, and perhaps the empty settlements are the middle-ground option to allow that to occur? Then we can fight over the hexes that actually produce enough bulk to support a settlement?
It would be a good idea for all that own basically empty settlements to get used to the idea that they will be juicy looking to groups of new players that have none.

You misunderstood. I meant the empty, never developed settlement hexes spread throughout the map not all the inactive and semi-inactive ones already claimed.
 
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