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Demotion of unsubscribed characters

Stilachio Thrax
This is what we want to prevent.

As the leader of Ozem's, I have a huge amount of access to how the settlement is run and can access all of the settlement vaults and their contents. As long as I'm playing, this isn't a problem, and we have other trusted leaders who can look after things. But let's say I decide to take a brief break from the game, and over that vacation I get an offer to buy my account. If I sell it and don't tell my compatriots, the new person can log in my leader, completely empty the settlement vaults (everything can be taken- bulk, mats for buildings and holdings, undeployed buildings and holdings, and soon gold as well), destroy every single company holding, and get Bob to remove currently placed buildings. There is nothing that can be done to stop this by anyone else in the founding company or settlement. This is the problem.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Smitty
@ Flari -

This is a response I received from Bob in Dec 2016 … I asked how I could remove a leader character - that Quej had in my company because he was selling his accounts..
“The only situation so far where we allow one player to request that another player be demoted from company leader is when the official settlement owner requests that a leader of the settlement's founding company be demoted, and that's only allowed because it's kind of essential to being a settlement's tyrant. …. Quijenoth could of course voluntarily demote himself if his accounts are still active, or he could send an email to customer.support@goblinworks.com asking me to demote him. “

AS to non settlement founding companies …

“..My best advice would be to do what you can to protect yourself from losses by putting any vault contents (both at settlements and holdings) someplace safer, then negotiate with Quijenoth or his successor to either remove Aleena from leadership or to make sure you feel comfortable with _____ remaining as a leader. Your other alternative is to split off into a new company, taking anything not tied down, but that of course has its own issues.”

“Hopefully everything will work out, but there's always some risk when allowing in a co-leader or when signing on to a settlement. You never know for sure what that person will do in the future. Always best to protect yourself, and to have a plan just in case your company is compromised or your settlement is no longer to your liking.
Good luck!


… The above email was 2 years ago … So what exactly should change ?

Are you asking for the founding character from the company to be able to demote a leader in that company ? I could get behind that - as long as GW has records of who founded the company.. but that was the very question that is responded to above..

Beyond that …

Your risk was a known thing … even if you didn’t think about it .. IF it worries you now start a new company today .
If you have Jakaboo as a leader and don’t know where he came from or where he went that is still on you .. Even more so If you bought the account - and aren’t sure if you are the founding leader or a promoted leader ( GW shouldn’t have to tell you who founded the company.. youshould know that if you are wanting to use it, if you aren’t sure.. you should probably do something to make sure you know that information in the future )..
If you have waited years and are just now figuring out this is a risk - that is on you -
You could of started a new company when influence caps disappeared and your current problem wouldn’t be a GW problem..

So If you or anyone else wants to fix this issue.. Fix it The tools exist to do so .. But it is going to take work on your end -

If you want to keep those questionable companies around - tie them to a welcome back settlement- ( you guys have how many settlements - designate one of them as the high risk settlement for companies that may or may not fully controlled )-
Put minimal resources into the bank there and if someone comes back- they are still somewhat attached to you -
IF you feel they can be trusted - move them too the real settlement..
You can create companies you emphatically trust to use for your more valuable players.. and settlements

If you don’t want to loose the holdings / influence - ally that welcome back settlement to yours- you still get protection from ally settlements.. heck you can create a good buffer to hexes you want to protect..
IF they happen to control one of your Core 6 - you may want to change that hex out with a company you trust ..
None of this sounds like a GW issue - it sounds like a realization that you are taking a risk - so do something about the risk..
Smitty
@Stilachio Thrax
Not even sure what to say other than ..

If you take a break .. form the game.. Tell your settlement mates

If they think you are going to run off and sell your account during this break, well you guys have interesting term for buddies and friends.
If that is an issue - perhaps they can drop you a line to have you demote yourself before you take that break … Or
You can send an email to Bob to demote yourself before you sell ( if you care about them, if you want to screw them over.. sell it to whoever and watch the world burn, sure they will blame you just as much as the person doing the deed)..
IF you take no actions and screw your settlement mates over - That is on You not on GW to protect you ..
Flari-Merchant
I don't think that it is such a big issue with companies. There are tools available for that as you have pointed out. A settlement is a different animal, however, and MUCH more is at stake.

Yes a founding leader should be able to demote leaders. Still, I lobby that an unsubscribed leader that is uncommunicative (virtually), should be replaceable by a subscribed and active leader if the Settlement all wants it so. There is no tool for that.

I totally get that Paizo does not want to ruffle the feathers of any players that might return. I do not get why a nonsubbed and totally missing leader should be in charge of a settlement and that there be such a potential back door to wrecking so much effort.

We are talking about demoting a character here and then using the tools that we have to set security levels, not about erasing accounts.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Stilachio Thrax
This is what we want to prevent.

As the leader of Ozem's, I have a huge amount of access to how the settlement is run and can access all of the settlement vaults and their contents. As long as I'm playing, this isn't a problem, and we have other trusted leaders who can look after things. But let's say I decide to take a brief break from the game, and over that vacation I get an offer to buy my account. If I sell it and don't tell my compatriots, the new person can log in my leader, completely empty the settlement vaults (everything can be taken- bulk, mats for buildings and holdings, undeployed buildings and holdings, and soon gold as well), destroy every single company holding, and get Bob to remove currently placed buildings. There is nothing that can be done to stop this by anyone else in the founding company or settlement. This is the problem.
This will always be a problem, because it doesn't matter if you take a break or not. You could be active one day and decide to sell the account later that same evening. That is not Paizo's responsibility. We trust who we trust, and sometimes that trust will bite us in the ass.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Flari-Merchant
@ Smitty

First, GW was willing to fix some things, but not all things. Probably because it might deluge them with requests to be Net Detectives and eat enormous amounts of time. As it stands now, there is absolutely no way to resolve multiple leadership of settlements.
My understanding from Bob was that anyone on the contact list who requests assignement of the settlement control to a new company will be listened to. He might or might not choose to contact anyone else who was listed as a settlement owner, depending if their account is current.

Flari-Merchant
But there is a huge "Backdoor to Ruin" potential here from an overlooked security hole. Like the kind that we were promised would not be there.
Yes. And I complained from before there were group banks that players needed the agency that was promised through settlement control charters that specified how these things would change. Bob has recently indicated that is the preferred solution. I feel like exploring when/how he thinks that is possible is a better answer than asking them to create a mechanism for removing leaders.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Flari-Merchant
Why should leadership that is not supporting the game by subbing, no one remembers or simply can't be contacted by players anymore have it within their power to wreck a settlement possibly just by selling an account to the wrong person?

We did get ourselves into the mess but humans without limits will always do that. It is Paizo's (good business sense) responsibility that there are no "back doors" of such obvious exploitation.

It should be kept at the settlement level and it could be on a case by case basis. There are probably 100's of companies but there are only (I believe) less than 30 player settlements.
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
You are a Troll
Smitty
@ Flari -

This is a response I received from Bob in Dec 2016 … I asked how I could remove a leader character - that Quej had in my company because he was selling his accounts..
“The only situation so far where we allow one player to request that another player be demoted from company leader is when the official settlement owner requests that a leader of the settlement's founding company be demoted, and that's only allowed because it's kind of essential to being a settlement's tyrant. …. Quijenoth could of course voluntarily demote himself if his accounts are still active, or he could send an email to customer.support@goblinworks.com asking me to demote him. “

AS to non settlement founding companies …

“..My best advice would be to do what you can to protect yourself from losses by putting any vault contents (both at settlements and holdings) someplace safer, then negotiate with Quijenoth or his successor to either remove Aleena from leadership or to make sure you feel comfortable with _____ remaining as a leader. Your other alternative is to split off into a new company, taking anything not tied down, but that of course has its own issues.”

“Hopefully everything will work out, but there's always some risk when allowing in a co-leader or when signing on to a settlement. You never know for sure what that person will do in the future. Always best to protect yourself, and to have a plan just in case your company is compromised or your settlement is no longer to your liking.
Good luck!


… The above email was 2 years ago … So what exactly should change ?

Are you asking for the founding character from the company to be able to demote a leader in that company ? I could get behind that - as long as GW has records of who founded the company.. but that was the very question that is responded to above..

Beyond that …

Your risk was a known thing … even if you didn’t think about it .. IF it worries you now start a new company today .
If you have Jakaboo as a leader and don’t know where he came from or where he went that is still on you .. Even more so If you bought the account - and aren’t sure if you are the founding leader or a promoted leader ( GW shouldn’t have to tell you who founded the company.. youshould know that if you are wanting to use it, if you aren’t sure.. you should probably do something to make sure you know that information in the future )..
If you have waited years and are just now figuring out this is a risk - that is on you -
You could of started a new company when influence caps disappeared and your current problem wouldn’t be a GW problem..

So If you or anyone else wants to fix this issue.. Fix it The tools exist to do so .. But it is going to take work on your end -

If you want to keep those questionable companies around - tie them to a welcome back settlement- ( you guys have how many settlements - designate one of them as the high risk settlement for companies that may or may not fully controlled )-
Put minimal resources into the bank there and if someone comes back- they are still somewhat attached to you -
IF you feel they can be trusted - move them too the real settlement..
You can create companies you emphatically trust to use for your more valuable players.. and settlements

If you don’t want to loose the holdings / influence - ally that welcome back settlement to yours- you still get protection from ally settlements.. heck you can create a good buffer to hexes you want to protect..
IF they happen to control one of your Core 6 - you may want to change that hex out with a company you trust ..
None of this sounds like a GW issue - it sounds like a realization that you are taking a risk - so do something about the risk..

Have to agree with the all of Smitty's points. We all arrived at this place and time in PFO by many varied paths…if now something is *scary* to you then deal with it and stop asking Bob to fix it for you.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Flari-Merchant
Why should leadership that is not supporting the game by subbing, no one remembers or simply can't be contacted by players anymore have it within their power to wreck a settlement possibly just by selling an account to the wrong person?
They probably shouldn't. Which is why there should be a way of removing them. The way that was promised half a decade ago. Not a new way that gives us yet another chance to introduce bugs or unexpected consequences which will have to be replaced by the appropriate way at some point.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Flari-Merchant
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Flari-Merchant
Why should leadership that is not supporting the game by subbing, no one remembers or simply can't be contacted by players anymore have it within their power to wreck a settlement possibly just by selling an account to the wrong person?
They probably shouldn't. Which is why there should be a way of removing them. The way that was promised half a decade ago. Not a new way that gives us yet another chance to introduce bugs or unexpected consequences which will have to be replaced by the appropriate way at some point.
Anything that fixes such a glaring security risk is fine by me. I am not pushing to have it done today. Tomorrow would be fine. smile
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
 
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