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For Lack of an Auction House

WxCougar of KOTC
That was a thought I had (aside from the other points against having more AHs in all Settlements). Some folks may have bought player houses in crafting because they wanted to sell items in their settlement where they knew they wouldn't have an AH.
Keeper's Pass (NG) - Respecting life, protecting freedom, united against tyranny. We are a Crafting Settlement with friendly people and welcome many play styles including casual and Role playing. For more information check our Traveler's Guide to Keeper's Pass at https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/109/. If you wish to join with us in Keeper's Pass come visit us at our website at http://www.kotcguild.com/.
Bob
Flari-Merchant
Why though build a system to try and concentrate economic activity in areas that players will endeavor to build up, only to turn around and diffuse it back to even more scattered than it is now?

We still want economic activity to be concentrated, and definitely want Auction House upgrades to help drive activity to particular settlements. We're just concerned that there may be some base level of offline item sales that's more essential for supporting day-to-day gameplay for some player segments than we'd originally thought.

Flari-Merchant
And are you not concerned that this will lessen the value of your Player Housing?

This was definitely a concern, though depending on exactly how we implemented any additional auction capabilities, the studios could still serve functions that some base-level capabilities wouldn't. For example, if you only had a +0 Auction House, you couldn't sell T2+3 and above stuff from your profession there, but you could at your studio. And if we restricted minimal auction capability (whether at holdings or Taverns or Black Markets or… ) to only non-upgradable items, then you'd still only be able to sell most crafted and refined items at studios wherever there isn't an Auction House. It's all in the details.
Flari-Merchant
Bob
Flari-Merchant
Why though build a system to try and concentrate economic activity in areas that players will endeavor to build up, only to turn around and diffuse it back to even more scattered than it is now?

We still want economic activity to be concentrated, and definitely want Auction House upgrades to help drive activity to particular settlements. We're just concerned that there may be some base level of offline item sales that's more essential for supporting day-to-day gameplay for some player segments than we'd originally thought.

Flari-Merchant
And are you not concerned that this will lessen the value of your Player Housing?

This was definitely a concern, though depending on exactly how we implemented any additional auction capabilities, the studios could still serve functions that some base-level capabilities wouldn't. For example, if you only had a +0 Auction House, you couldn't sell T2+3 and above stuff from your profession there, but you could at your studio. And if we restricted minimal auction capability (whether at holdings or Taverns or Black Markets or… ) to only non-upgradable items, then you'd still only be able to sell most crafted and refined items at studios wherever there isn't an Auction House. It's all in the details.
It looks like you are pretty set on this or at least my concerns are not enough to sway you. I'll leave it at the point that I really feel that you will diffuse the value of high level AHs as they do not sell nearly as much T3 materials/gear as they do/will as T2 and lower and that you will probably anger those that have invested in the premium Player Studio shops.

One player not in favor of this. This is Paizo's show though. I hope that I am wrong and it adds good things to the game. smile
You are a Troll
Adding AH capability to every settlement is a bad idea no matter how you spin it, and I agree with Flari that Bob seems to have already made up his mind, which is a shame. T1 materials are the bread and butter of most AH's currently in game I think (except maybe Keepers Pass?) - your proposal would do everything Flari and others have said it would do via diffusing the economy even more, which would not be a positive. How about shelve the AH everywhere idea and instead give us something useful to run across the map like a Lesser Token of Quickening?
Gross
You are never too far from an AH as it is, more AH will just dilute things.
Mercenary monster hunter from Forgeholm
War priest of Angradd… patiently waiting on Goblinworks to deliver him (and greataxes, Dwarves need 2 handed axes).
Edam
You are a Troll
Adding AH capability to every settlement is a bad idea no matter how you spin it, and I agree with Flari that Bob seems to have already made up his mind, which is a shame. T1 materials are the bread and butter of most AH's currently in game I think (except maybe Keepers Pass?) - your proposal would do everything Flari and others have said it would do via diffusing the economy even more, which would not be a positive. How about shelve the AH everywhere idea and instead give us something useful to run across the map like a Lesser Token of Quickening?

If anything this plan might encourage Keepers to knockdown the auction house and use the large slot freed up for a Barracks or University. Personally there are enough AH and little crafters cottages to run around and check without adding even more.

I could see this system potentially being used by larger groups wanting to keep mats "in house" by putting them for sale at a holding and restricting access to that holding to their own crafters whilst allowing public access to their actual AHs but other than that I do not see much demand.
Tyncale
Looking at the reactions I think it would be better if the "can search and place orders at any AH's from everywhere" functionality would be implemented first before adding more selling locations. Bob said this was not a trivial task, but it was always intended to have that functionality (Ryan and co).

You could browse every AH (from your own AH? From anywhere?) and even buy stuff remotely and maybe post things too on that remote AH? It would be the actual transportation of the goods that would become the truly risky part of the Economy. Abadar credit is untouchable, and Auctionhouse Data can be metagamed outside of the game, so that leaves the actual goods as the only asset to create gameplay around(Transport, banditry). AH's are already posting their stuff on forums now. You would have to put in some safeguards to prevent players from "playing the AH" by quickly turning over goods without ever being near to them. Like can only relist after a certain time or so. Or goods have to be collected within 4 weeks. This might be a coders nightmare so I think where Bob is coming from. smile

Still, I think you need this functionality before any sweeping changes to the availability of AH's. With Abadar credit being untouchable already, it is only the goods that are at risk: the more "pick up points" you create on the map (AH's, playerhousing, Holdings) the shorter the transport lines will become and the lesser the danger will be from banditry and ambush. Long hauls (caravans) would become pretty rare though some stuff probably still would have to come from afar. But if you can get that batch of Tansy Leaves from just 2 Hexes away instead of 11, that will make a difference.

*If* it needs implementation I would still hope that Settlements would at least have to give up a Hex for it and have the AH/Holding be vulnerable(posted goods would revert to the Settlements Vault when the Holding gets razed, maybe with some loss). That could add some extra opportunities for the Trading Game. As Bob said, the placement of this AH-holding could add to strategic gameplay. Having a AH in the middle of a productive Coalfield would surely attract some (unwanted) players. smile I am not really expecting any AH-holdings being attacked in this phase of the game but such an AH sure could create hot spots of activity. Also, settlements that already have an AH are not left out with this way of implementation: they could still benefit from a "satellite" AH-holding too.
Regalo Harnoncourt, Leader of the River Kingdoms Trading Company, High Council of Callambea.
This is the character that I am playing almost 100% of the time. (Tyncale is my Sage/Mage)
Bob
Flari-Merchant
It looks like you are pretty set on this…

Apologies for giving this impression. The part we're convinced about here is that there are some aspects of dealing with loot and gathered resources that just don't feel quite right yet. Since the selling/trading/disposing of loot after an adventure is a pretty central part of the tabletop Pathfinder experience, we want to get that right for Pathfinder Online as well. The primary tool for doing that in the original design was Auction Houses, so that made us question whether we had overly restricted the use of that tool in player settlements. As we talked through the issue, we also started to question the true viability of a settlement without an Auction House, and believe lacking an Auction House conflicts to at least some degree with our goal of letting players focus largely on their own personal preferred gameplay.

We're not, however, absolutely convinced that this particular proposal (or any variant of it) is the correct way to deal with the situation, and are definitely still debating internally whether or not to implement anything along these lines, as well as the exact details should we decide to move ahead. We do know that this is one of those issues that really needs to be looked at from a variety of angles, so we very much want to get all your feedback instead of just depending on what we 3 think of. Maybe together we'll come up with a specific version of this idea that alleviates everyone's concerns. Maybe there are better alternatives for dealing with the underlying issues. Or maybe we just need to reframe things to make settlements without Auction Houses more clearly cater to those who enjoy working around the lack of local sales capability. We won't commit to a particular course of action until we're convinced it's an appropriate short-term plan, and that it's bringing us closer to our long-term plans.
Giorgio
-1 to Mandatory AHs in all settlements; if everyone has an AH, no-one has a real AH. It is already a burdend to have to pre-position otherwise useless 1K XP alts at various AHs just to keep tabs on a few key markets to get AH information. Having an AH at every settlement would mean lots of wasted time running around to get the needed info. Not everyone uses the GW trade forums so that is not a real option for most players.

I "trader" skill or equivalent as mentioned above is a key element that is missing from the economic system.

Instead of a full mandatory AH for each settlement, there are various levels of "economic or market capacity" that each settlement should have the option to invest resources in.

Settlement Economic/Trading Capacity]
Default: bare minimum, use a default building like a Tavern or Keep
Basic: players build a small structure, or upgrade a default structure
Intermediate: players build an upgraded small structure, a medium structure, or a premium store item
Advanced: players build an Auction House

Many good ideas for structure types in the posts above; also, I think the second-class status of Freeholders/Experts and their Guild Houses leaves a lot of open "design space" that can accomplish a lot of the goals Bob wants without having to place a full fledge AH everywhere.
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Bob
Giorgio
Default: bare minimum, use a default building like a Tavern or Keep

This here is the trickiest part of the discussion: What is the bare minimum auction-like capability for a viable player settlement? Nothing? Bids only (almost like a light contract system)? Loot/Mats only? T1 only? Some variant of an AH nearby (core 6, neighboring settlement, NPC settlement within reasonable running distance)? An actual Auction House in every settlement? Something else that fills the same needs, or a subset of those needs?
 
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