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High sec hexes being low sec during PvP window?

Paddy Fitzpatrick
Also I would be interested in these specialized camps to either raise or lower security in a hex. Giving something else for an engineer to do is always a plus. It has my vote.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
It all still comes down to the question: What kind of game does Paizo want Pathfinder Online to be if and when they can manage to get it to grow to a respectable 10,000+ individual players?

Taking everything that I remember from the past blogs and write ups and through the evidence since then of mechanical development, they seem to NOT want it to be heavily set up for random and penalty free PVP. They want there to be plenty of PVP but for it to be what is now known as "sanctioned" PVP, for the most part, with some risks of Random PVP in there as a "cautionary element".

With that fairly obvious, I have to ask: What exactly is your aim in wanting to alter the mechanics that they have set up toward making the game atmosphere that they want for their game? I'll also ask you to tell me what kind of an end state atmosphere it is that you would think was a satisfactory one? If what you have asked for here doesn't give you the increased random PVP opportunities that you want(it really won't), what will be the next thing that you want?

It isn't as if no one ever gets PK'ed now, even as low as the population is. When the population grows by 100 times, you will have 100 times the opportunities for random PVP that you are wanting now. Even with the mechanics that are in effect right now. That won't be enough Random PVP for you?

IMO, it is simply a population problem. The same problem that you have had since before there were Security Hexes. You don't remember but then the complaints were about reputation penalties… I really do not see value in trying to fix something that isn't broken. The answer is in spending effort to increase the player population.

Tdltr:
You do recognize that Paizo wants a certain type of PVP atmosphere, don't you?
Exactly what type of atmosphere do you want?
You do realize that what you are asking for will not really get you anything that you got BEFORE Security settings were ever available at all? You couldn't find anyone before these settings. You won't find hardly anything if there was a way to take them away.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bringslite
@ Smitty

I have no doubts that your description of a bandit's day is accurate and it does not sound like fun. GW originally made it seem like playing the role of a "bandit" was going to be viable and important and even fun on some level but they have really done nothing yet to make that so. That is not ok in my opinion.

GW also intimated that playing the role of "successful bandit" would include the requirements of LOTS of patience, LOTS of intel gathering, LOTS of hard times in-between scores. In fact, that it would be really difficult and mostly frustrating but not for those that REALLY are into that sort of thing.

Still, they haven't really put an ounce of effort into it other than the Security Hex settings. Those hexes are partly designed for bandits. They give you Low Security Hexes where you can ply your trade without reputation penalties in addition to all of the "wild hexes" that are permanently penalty free.

I won't say that running around randomly looking for "snacks" is the worst way to find "snacks" but I will say that it isn't probably the best and only way to find "snacks".
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Stilachio Thrax
Smitty
lets look at the activity of being a bandit-
So I spend a few hours aimless roaming the map- looking for a mobile node( gatherer)- I find one!! He is in a high sec hex ..
sigh -
I cant attack – high sec hex ( which cost you no more than clicking a button, not a much a price you paid for that button, but that is a argument for another time)
I cant declare a feud because it takes an hour and his gusher is done in 40 minutes..
I cant stalk him on the way back- because every hex is high sec - or he just drops his loot in the holding..
If I am spotted he drops his loot in the holding- calls his buddies and chases me away..
My activity for the evening equated to nothing but frustration.. and in no way made me any richer .. or gave me hope that tomorrow would be rewarding..
If I wanted to feud I have to grind 100 influence to start one.. and then hope I find someone during the feud that is attached to the right company.. ( kind of hard to do unless you have a target and location in mind)-
How is this “preferred banditry behavior” even remotely fun for anyone interested in PvP? It is just frustrating and turns people off..

Let's look at the activity of being a mostly PVE combat character…
I spend my initial time in game trying to determine if there are escalations nearby
If no one knows in comms, I get to run to each hex to check
If no escalations are spawned (happens a lot), I get the option of running to the far west, far east or far southeast
If running that distance, by the time I get there I have time to check for escalations and maybe spend half an hour to an hour working it.
If no escalations, I get to log
Optionally I can stand around and "help" a friend with a gusher
or I can use mules to haul bulk around, an activity that is more job than fun
Unless its a high end escalation, at best I'll get a smattering of copper coins and salvage but nothing exciting
How is this “PVE behavior” even remotely fun for anyone interested in PvE? It is just frustrating and turns people off..

Your issue and my issue have the exact same problem- this is an unfinished game that doesn't have enough population to support getting content we'd like to an acceptable state. Everyone has solutions to try and fix symptoms, without ever addressing the actual cause of the problem.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Smitty
Brings-

- nowhere in the features section - under Open world PVP or secure areas does it say anything about Players being able to turn half the map from combat- It still says this is an open world sandbox with consequences.. It says the further you go from NPC areas the more dangerous things get .. It still says combat among players is to be expected ..
As far as I know that is still the goal and direction of the game and the type of players they are going after- because you know its on the features page of the web site…
Yet somewhere along the way- people convinced the powers that be that high security should be a thing -
Great! Another hoop to jump through in order to gain the right to engage opponents in approved/acceptable combat!
Just being able to attack you when I find you shouldn’t take the same effort ( influence banked) that I would have to bank to take over your hex..

Asking for a hide out that a player can set up when they see you , in order to have a chance to engage you isn’t too much of ask ..
They still have to track you down- ( yes it would still take a ton of work.. but once a target is found something can happen)
- a hex changing security would still notify anyone in that hex the security changed.. it probably wouldn’t last any longer than a gusher(in reality the same rules would apply to it, heck even the same model since we have no artist, - set it up- it can take damage like a gusher camp, except players cause the damage not npc waves). So it has no lasting effect on territory..
- A bandit has to make hideouts and carry them around- so unless they are planning on finding prey they may not even have them in their inventory if it is truly a random encounter.. and that means they have to gather the stuff to craft them- and if you kill them they might loose the ones they made

So how does the above not equate to “extremely difficult” that you seem to point out was the overall direction GW wanted a bandit to go through
-it requires gathering and a focused approach?? It probably still would be frustrating- - but at least it is an option. .. An activity a player can do in game ..

And more than anything that is what is needed in this game - activities -

Hobson Fiffledown
I think it all boils down to Paizo getting PFO to OE and the effectiveness of their marketing plan. The roadmap to minimum viable product is already defined. By now, anyone still hanging on to the game should darn well know what to expect from the OE product.

GW’s bet is “add people, fun will happen”. Except for some polish and some builder level mechanics, what’s we see now IS the game. As a non-builder, non-maker, my game consists of logging in every month or so and spending some xp. Wheeee! All the crunchy bits are buried behind grindy, grindy, boring as heck PvE. However, I can still, sort of, see how adding players could solve that problem. We’re effing there. If what Paizo has set as a the OE goal for player retention does not work, we can pretty soundly label this game as a vanity project from there on out.

I’m not trying to say that the couple of people still working on the game aren’t doing the thing. They’re doing the thing. But we’re waaaay past the point of adding major new mechanics to try and figure out how to make the game “fun” (that question alone is damn frightening). Fully ship that damn Edsel to market and see who wants to drive it. As it is, only a couple dozen players are willing to pay to drive that Edsel until Paizo figure out how to build a Mustang.
This space for rent.
Bob
Our goal has always been to nudge the world toward an equilibrium where players who stuck close to home in a powerful alliance could feel extremely safe, but at the cost of limiting themselves to gathering more depleted resources and looting lower-level mobs. Those seeking better rewards could go toward the edges of alliance territory. The closer they got, the more PvP they'd face, mostly sanctioned but occasionally just banditry. Those seeking the greatest rewards would have to head to unprotected territory, where PvP would be much more common, and where even PvE could be quite dangerous.

A lot of that security was supposed to come from simply being surrounded by allied players in-game, so that enemies would find it difficult to get far into an alliance's territory without being noticed. Some of that security was supposed to come from greater abilities to police territory, and the ability to set security levels is a step in that direction. A blunt step very much in need of polish, but a step. Upkeep ideas are definitely plausible, and charging upkeep for any variation from medium is definitely intriguing. We also need to do more work to keep it from being to easy to just run back into safe hexes to avoid PvP that is supposed to be a legitimate risk of hanging out in monster hexes and the like. That's all stuff we plan to tackle over time, it just has to be carefully balanced against the need for many players to be able to minimize their PvP risks, within reason and with fair costs associated. Getting that right is tricky, so we want to make sure any changes are thoroughly thought through.
Bringslite
First, I'm not really against some of the things that you described there. What I am saying is that 1/2 of the map is NOT HIGH SEC as you claim. That there are advantages and disadvantages to High Sec hexes. That no quick fix will make much of a difference to how many opponents/victims that you can find to engage on this map. More likely just new and low skilled characters. Those that wish to avoid random PVP will either quit or they will adjust to have a smaller footprint just like they did before Sec Hexes.

Totally possible that I am wrong about the GW intent about PVP status. I can only go by what I see being implemented. What I remember. If you remember, I brought up allowing players to set security levels for their hexes and Lisa popped in to tell us it was already being developed. In any case, if I am right about what kind of PVP scene they really want, they really should update the features section. I'll be okay either way they want it. I played DF:UW for two years. I doubt that I am wrong though. Those types of games have a habit of becoming nothing but wolf vs wolf in short order. PVP enthusiasts never seem to grasp that. They just want more and more easy killing until the balance is tipped and the game a ruin.

What is a dedicated bandit doing looking for targets in High Sec areas in the first place? We are, largely, character developed to the point that almost exclusively we do our business in Low Sec hexes.

Do you think that we should go back to regular rep penalties? Do you think that there should be opposite but equal ways to counter High/Low Sec overrides? Or do you just think that anyone should be free to kill anywhere on the map except TK?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite
@ Smitty

I have no doubts that your description of a bandit's day is accurate and it does not sound like fun. GW originally made it seem like playing the role of a "bandit" was going to be viable and important and even fun on some level but they have really done nothing yet to make that so. That is not ok in my opinion.

GW also intimated that playing the role of "successful bandit" would include the requirements of LOTS of patience, LOTS of intel gathering, LOTS of hard times in-between scores. In fact, that it would be really difficult and mostly frustrating but not for those that REALLY are into that sort of thing.

Still, they haven't really put an ounce of effort into it other than the Security Hex settings. Those hexes are partly designed for bandits. They give you Low Security Hexes where you can ply your trade without reputation penalties in addition to all of the "wild hexes" that are permanently penalty free.

I won't say that running around randomly looking for "snacks" is the worst way to find "snacks" but I will say that it isn't probably the best and only way to find "snacks".

Aren't you kinda preaching to the choir here on this one?

I think enough of us have been in the business long enough now to know these ins and outs of the bandit lifestyle smile

As one of the guys who worked hard to work around these lack of mechanics and made banditry a viable thing, I will say that Smitty has nailed what the problem is.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bob
I know this is a contentious issue, and it's always hard to draw a line on posting etiquette, but let's try to keep the discussion from getting personal.
 
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