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High sec hexes being low sec during PvP window?

Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bob
Our goal has always been to nudge the world toward an equilibrium where players who stuck close to home in a powerful alliance could feel extremely safe, but at the cost of limiting themselves to gathering more depleted resources and looting lower-level mobs. Those seeking better rewards could go toward the edges of alliance territory. The closer they got, the more PvP they'd face, mostly sanctioned but occasionally just banditry. Those seeking the greatest rewards would have to head to unprotected territory, where PvP would be much more common, and where even PvE could be quite dangerous.

A lot of that security was supposed to come from simply being surrounded by allied players in-game, so that enemies would find it difficult to get far into an alliance's territory without being noticed. Some of that security was supposed to come from greater abilities to police territory, and the ability to set security levels is a step in that direction. A blunt step very much in need of polish, but a step. Upkeep ideas are definitely plausible, and charging upkeep for any variation from medium is definitely intriguing. We also need to do more work to keep it from being to easy to just run back into safe hexes to avoid PvP that is supposed to be a legitimate risk of hanging out in monster hexes and the like. That's all stuff we plan to tackle over time, it just has to be carefully balanced against the need for many players to be able to minimize their PvP risks, within reason and with fair costs associated. Getting that right is tricky, so we want to make sure any changes are thoroughly thought through.

Thanks for the response Bob. It is comforting to know that these things are at least being thought about.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Hmm…. Didn't think that rated a removal but I'll roll with it and try again.

What is the end state that would be the game and PVP scene which would satisfy the most PVP hungry of any of you out there? Back to "Before Sec" with rep penalties? Just wide open PVP with no restrictions?

And lastly, since I am too weary of this to re-ask all of my unanswered questions: Why do you think that the state before Sec Hexes would be any different/better for you than it was back then?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
@Bringslite

When it comes to banditry it isn't all just the PvP either. How am I supposed to say stick em up and dont try nothing fancy if large swaths of the map can be made to render this pointless with a click of a button? Regardless of whether I actually want to attack a player, the stick em up stuff I figured out how to do has no bite to it. I just get laughed at as the target runs away and is safe for most of his journey home. Either that or they just drop it off at a holding.

Everyone has seriously gotta stop putting "PvP enthusiasts" into one giant bucket. The ideas being suggested are not for free PvP and not unlimited slaughterfest. No one is asking for a free lunch. Some of us are trying to say the balance has gone way too far to the opposite extreme and some rebalancing needs to be done so nobody gets a free lunch.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Hobson Fiffledown
I think it all boils down to Paizo getting PFO to OE and the effectiveness of their marketing plan. The roadmap to minimum viable product is already defined. By now, anyone still hanging on to the game should darn well know what to expect from the OE product.

GW’s bet is “add people, fun will happen”. Except for some polish and some builder level mechanics, what’s we see now IS the game. As a non-builder, non-maker, my game consists of logging in every month or so and spending some xp. Wheeee! All the crunchy bits are buried behind grindy, grindy, boring as heck PvE. However, I can still, sort of, see how adding players could solve that problem. We’re effing there. If what Paizo has set as a the OE goal for player retention does not work, we can pretty soundly label this game as a vanity project from there on out.

I’m not trying to say that the couple of people still working on the game aren’t doing the thing. They’re doing the thing. But we’re waaaay past the point of adding major new mechanics to try and figure out how to make the game “fun” (that question alone is damn frightening). Fully ship that damn Edsel to market and see who wants to drive it. As it is, only a couple dozen players are willing to pay to drive that Edsel until Paizo figure out how to build a Mustang.
I somewhat agree here with Hobson. I write "somewhat" because realistically an MMORPG simply can't change fast enough without money and a larger team vs I cringe because I have a terrible feeling that not enough has been done(or could be done) in the short amount of time that they have had to make the game much more appealing enough…

It really does just come down to getting the damn thing to OE, the word out, catching what players they can and reinvesting any cash flow into a larger team.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite
Hmm…. Didn't think that rated a removal but I'll roll with it and try again.

What is the end state that would be the game and PVP scene which would satisfy the most PVP hungry of any of you out there? Back to "Before Sec" with rep penalties? Just wide open PVP with no restrictions?

And lastly, since I am too weary of this to re-ask all of my unanswered questions: Why do you think that the state before Sec Hexes would be any different/better for you than it was back then?

Half of these questions you keep asking arent relevant because there isn't anyone advocating for going back to before sec, or unrestricted PvP, or removing all limits.

I dont see why you keep asking them.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Paddy Fitzpatrick
@Bringslite

When it comes to banditry it isn't all just the PvP either. How am I supposed to say stick em up and dont try nothing fancy if large swaths of the map can be made to render this pointless with a click of a button? Regardless of whether I actually want to attack a player, the stick em up stuff I figured out how to do has no bite to it. I just get laughed at as the target runs away and is safe for most of his journey home. Either that or they just drop it off at a holding.

Everyone has seriously gotta stop putting "PvP enthusiasts" into one giant bucket. The ideas being suggested are not for free PvP and not unlimited slaughterfest. No one is asking for a free lunch. Some of us are trying to say the balance has gone way too far to the opposite extreme and some rebalancing needs to be done so nobody gets a free lunch.
I am not sure anymore that a "Stand and Deliver" mechanic is really possible. It requires either cooperation by the victim to stand there and get robbed or a very long stun that would be so abused it would be crazy. IMO the best solution is just kill them and take or leave as much loot as you want your all around server reputation to be known as. It is only, after all, a death in a game wherein you can't die… Unless Bob has knowledge of some mechanical possibilities that were thought of before?

I don't mean to put all PVP enthusiasts in one bucket. There are many that do not travel down the darker roads and I don't think any playing PfO right now do. I mean something a bit more about the concepts of how much freedom should be allowed to random PVP. Too much and the game goes way bad. Too little and you lose your market share of reasonable PVP players and those that like PVE better.

One thing that I find hard to grasp is that there are still more No Sec hexes on this map than High Sec. There are in fact more than ever and they can now be made Low Sec by players, but some players are unsatisfied by that. I doubt that 10% of this map's hexes are High Sec but players are still unsatisfied.

I really do think that what you really have here is a low pop problem. That's it.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bob
We had a lot of discussions over the details of Stand and Deliver mechanics, and they're definitely tricky. We were still convinced we could create mechanics that would work, and had various ideas for getting around all the problems, but I wouldn't say we had a final plan ready to go.
Flari-Merchant
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite
Hmm…. Didn't think that rated a removal but I'll roll with it and try again.

What is the end state that would be the game and PVP scene which would satisfy the most PVP hungry of any of you out there? Back to "Before Sec" with rep penalties? Just wide open PVP with no restrictions?

And lastly, since I am too weary of this to re-ask all of my unanswered questions: Why do you think that the state before Sec Hexes would be any different/better for you than it was back then?

Half of these questions you keep asking arent relevant because there isn't anyone advocating for going back to before sec, or unrestricted PvP, or removing all limits.

I dont see why you keep asking them.
How about, what will happen if you get your wish? Time and effort is spent to put costs on security settings. Those settings get paid or they get reverted to Med Sec. You still can't find anyone cause there is no one there?
or
It gets left alone. The population grows and there are 10x the players roaming around than there are now. Builder Groups get to have Security in their areas they can hold. More aggressive groups get to have PVP penalty free in all areas they can hold. No time and effort gets spent on what is really a low pop problem?
"I buy Azoth for 5sp/ea. I will trade Enchanting or other rare materials/anything for Azoth. Contact me if interested. GET YOUR COIN EASY!"
uotopia@msn.com
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Flari-Merchant
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite
Hmm…. Didn't think that rated a removal but I'll roll with it and try again.

What is the end state that would be the game and PVP scene which would satisfy the most PVP hungry of any of you out there? Back to "Before Sec" with rep penalties? Just wide open PVP with no restrictions?

And lastly, since I am too weary of this to re-ask all of my unanswered questions: Why do you think that the state before Sec Hexes would be any different/better for you than it was back then?

Half of these questions you keep asking arent relevant because there isn't anyone advocating for going back to before sec, or unrestricted PvP, or removing all limits.

I dont see why you keep asking them.
How about, what will happen if you get your wish? Time and effort is spent to put costs on security settings. Those settings get paid or they get reverted to Med Sec. You still can't find anyone cause there is no one there?
or
It gets left alone. The population grows and there are 10x the players roaming around than there are now. Builder Groups get to have Security in their areas they can hold. More aggressive groups get to have PVP penalty free in all areas they can hold. No time and effort gets spent on what is really a low pop problem?

So if I got my wish it would certainly have a serious impact on the kind of world new players will be coming into. The question then would be when.

If before OE, it results in every settlement and in particular the two "major" alliances having to strategize over where to allocate their resources. If they want to dump a lot of resources into making all their hexes low or hi then that is money not being spent elsewhere. Since many of the claimable hexes have been claimed this will affect the security settings all new players will be starting off with. It also means that it may take a while for everyone to get back to the place they were before without new players. It would give new players a world that isn't fully insulated from or inundated with PvP.

If done afterwards, some of that could still happen but the impact will depend on the population and general availability of resources at that point. Costs could always be scaled of course, but then again by then hopefully we would have more than two major alliances again in the first place and maybe with that we would have a different distribution of holdings per alliance. Of course, of it comes in early enough before enough new players can break off to form their own alliances then you may get similar effects to putting it in before OE.

That's the difference. Unless it is put in place a very long time after OE starts, it will have a significant effect on the overall player landscape. It will determine in part the kind of landscape new players will inherit.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Paddy Fitzpatrick
It also means that if at some point a settlement or alliance gets back to the point to having all hexes low or high sec, then at least they paid their dues to earn that.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
 
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