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And ammo for all

harneloot
Bob, please consider implementing Ammo for all ranged attacks and not somehow mysteriously exempt Star Slinger from this important part of the game. Thanks.
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
But then how will rogue clerics remain overpowered now?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
BlackMoria
Are you talking about the same mysterious rogue clerics that run around the map taking down the first 15% of Ninjas solo? (By the way, I am not one of them ) smile
Stilachio Thrax
I think requiring charges for Star Slinger is appropriate.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Bob
Ammo usage is just one of the ways we balance out ranged attacks and wasn't intended to be required for all of them. For example, all of the mastery cantrips can be used without ammo. However, all ranged attacks pay for their ranges by trading off for it in some way. Ammo is the most common tradeoff, but isn't really appropriate for star slinger because knives (and eventually starknives) don't allow for ammo containers, and it would be a little odd to allow them just to cover a small number of feats . Other common tradeoffs are provoking opportunity or being slowed/rooted. Ranged attacks also usually have slightly reduced damage and effects, though that can be improved by using better ammo where applicable.

The tricky part is that there are almost always circumstances where those tradeoffs just don't matter as much. Star Slinger is interesting in that its main tradeoff is in that it mostly trades range for limited damage and effects. That means it will generally take longer to kill an enemy, and time is usually very important. However, if you're not worried about speed and can keep out of your target's attack range, you can eventually win. Of course, you probably could have killed something else more quickly, upping your loot-over-time efficiency, but sometimes a particular kill is important enough to be worth that slowdown. Many attacks are overpowered in certain circumstances, which isn't necessarily a problem. However, if those circumstances happen too often or are too easily created, then we need to look and see if our formulas need adjustment, or if maybe we just need to add some rules about combinations that aren't allowed.

In that vein, it's possible that all ranged attacks need to have at least one of the most limiting factors thrown on (like they have to at least use ammo, slow/root, or both). Alternatively, it's possible that we just need to provide some factor that allows short-ranged targets to better deal with these kinds of attacks (for example, AIs could run away if they realize they're just slowly being whittled down). Those kinds of things are certainly more work, and we might need to just fiddle temporarily while waiting for longer-term fixes.
harneloot
Star Slinger is not comparable to the Wizard Masteries which are a whole separate VERY xp expensive feat purchase (compared to normal attacks) AND applies 2 seconds of slow to the caster, which Star Slinger also does not do.

Please consider applying slow or ammo or both to Star Slinger. Thanks.
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
BlackMoria
It may be possible to put a 'counter' on Star Slinger to simulate a bandoleer concept if one truly wants to preserve the flavor of the Star Slinger mechanics. Fire off a small number of shots and then a very long cool down timer kicks in - (1 minute? 5 minutes?) where Star Slinger is greyed out and can't be used. No special ammo type to be programmed and it will address some of the worst abuses of Star Slinger users (and there is considerable abuses) while retaining the Star Slinger flavor. Just a thought. Or just apply a one second or two second slow on each attack. Probably the easiest and quickest solution.
Stilachio Thrax
BlackMoria
It may be possible to put a 'counter' on Star Slinger to simulate a bandoleer concept if one truly wants to preserve the flavor of the Star Slinger mechanics. Fire off a small number of shots and then a very long cool down timer kicks in - (1 minute? 5 minutes?) where Star Slinger is greyed out and can't be used. No special ammo type to be programmed and it will address some of the worst abuses of Star Slinger users (and there is considerable abuses) while retaining the Star Slinger flavor. Just a thought.

I like this idea. It could be applied to a number of thrown weaopns, like axes, knives, javelins and spears, that currently aren't in game for players.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Yeah I'm with Xyzzy on this one.

It is Star Slinger specifically that is the problem. It gives too many benefits and stacks with almost every rogue feature with hardly any downsides and is easily spammable.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bob
Ranged attacks are always hard to balance, and we've always known we'd have to revisit these. Star Slinger and other sanctified attacks are actually meant to a little overpowered, but are supposed to have various deity requirements for training and using them that would balance that out a bit. But even once we get all that working, there's always been a lot of concern about any ranged attacks that don't either use ammo (so they can't be done endlessly except at high expense) or slow the attacker significantly (so the target has a decent chance to close the distance).

That said, it's nice to have some attacks that don't quite fit the usual mode, and there are other techniques to balance things out instead of just slow and ammo. For example, what would you all think about adding a cooldown, perhaps 6 seconds, to Star Slinger? It would get a small damage boost in exchange, just a few percent, but works well with the idea that you either have to wait for the knife to return, or that Desna needs a few seconds to prepare another magic knife for throwing.
 
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