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And ammo for all

Bob
BlackMoria
It may be possible to put a 'counter' on Star Slinger to simulate a bandoleer concept if one truly wants to preserve the flavor of the Star Slinger mechanics. Fire off a small number of shots and then a very long cool down timer kicks in - (1 minute? 5 minutes?) where Star Slinger is greyed out and can't be used. No special ammo type to be programmed and it will address some of the worst abuses of Star Slinger users (and there is considerable abuses) while retaining the Star Slinger flavor. Just a thought. Or just apply a one second or two second slow on each attack. Probably the easiest and quickest solution.

There are definitely some interesting things we could do along those lines for throwing weapons, but we'd need new code to pull them off. Not as hard to do as the full ammo system, but still involves a subset of the same work that would need to be adapted.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Would it be feasible to decrease the range and/or give star slinger a cooldown?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Azure_Zero
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Would it be feasible to decrease the range and/or give star slinger a cooldown?

I would agree those nerfs would lead to a reasonable balance.
Adding Ammo would nerf it to a useless and Ultra-expensive attack to use no one would want it.
It is already an expensive Attack EXP wise, why tax it with ammo.
Heck Wizards have Ammo-less ranged attacks as well.

If star slinger gets nerfed with ammo, I'll be betting that Ammo-less wizard attacks will be the star slinger for the rogues, and this time they can choose a variety of elements and have more attacks.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I was under the impression that no ammo wizard spells were either melee or close range. Problem with star slinger is it has shortbow range.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
harneloot
Wizard Mastery attacks apply slow to the caster.

Ammo is good - it contributes to the economy AND leaves the attack as a viable option.
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Bob
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Would it be feasible to decrease the range and/or give star slinger a cooldown?

Both are feasible. The tradeoff is that star slinger would probably get a small damage boost to balance out the change. However, if those changes remove a capability that feels like it takes undue advantage of the current state of the game, then that's the way to go. A relatively short cooldown like 6 seconds (we usually like to set cooldowns in 6-second rounds, though there are some exceptions) seems like the most promising change to me, and would only result in a small damage increase to offset it.
Bringslite
harneloot
Wizard Mastery attacks apply slow to the caster.

Ammo is good - it contributes to the economy AND leaves the attack as a viable option.

Agreed. With only a few hundred separate players (being optimistic here) it has caused at least one prolific ammo manufacturer. With 10,000 active players it would be many more players having an activity that brings them pleasure. It may or may not need balancing with some skills, but more feats using it wouldn't be terrible.

Ammo is good for the game.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Nails
Why do you think it took so long for anyone to see this type of build. You guys have no idea how much XP it takes to get Star Slinger. It took forever to get my Rogue Level 16, Dex to 30 and Wisdom to 24 to get Star Slinger 6. The list of requirements is a mile long, like you need Travel domain 8, etc.

I can understand nerfing something that is easy to get, but when it takes years to get all the XP to build this type of Rogue, it shouldn't be nerfed because it has some advantages over other builds.

I believe there are only 2 Rogues with Star Slinger level 6, if it was easy there would be many more.

Other Rogues have been able to use bleed and slow for a long time and been able to take down mobs and do well in PVP. Those builds should be nerfed because they are OP in PVP.
Bob
The design has always called for different builds to have different advantages over each other. There's no guarantee at all that two players with equal XP and similarly-tiered/upgraded equipment, with both having followed a well-thought-out build path for different roles, will be closely matched in PvP, or would each kill identical mobs in the same amount of time. Instead, the goal is that there are a wide variety of good build paths, and that each will be one of the better choices in some circumstances, one of the worst choices in other circumstances (not because of mistakes, but simply because that build can't take advantage of those circumstances), and a decent choice the rest of the time.

Purely from a balance perspective, feats like Star Slinger are really only a problem if the advantages they offer are so overpowered that they're on a short list of feats that everyone feels like they need to have at least one of or they're just not competitive. On the other hand, if you pay a big price for Star Slinger and it's just particularly useful in a small set of circumstances, then that's not so bad as long as other build paths are better under other circumstances.

A big part of my personal concern with Star Slinger is that it somewhat games the current AI when up against mobs that only have melee attacks. If there's still enough challenge to use it under those circumstances, or if those circumstances are rare and most of the time it's not that great a choice, or if plenty of other feats/builds have similar circumstances where they have roughly the same outsized level of advantage and can handle more/tougher mobs than they normally can in a mildly gamey way, then I'm a lot less concerned.

However, I have no doubt that there are some feats, or feat combinations, that are just plain overpowered too much of the time and need some adjustment, and maybe Star Slinger is one of them. Likewise, there are definitely some feats out there that need to be beefed up. The best way to identify them currently is to get feedback from all of you, and the more feedback the better.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Nails
Why do you think it took so long for anyone to see this type of build. You guys have no idea how much XP it takes to get Star Slinger. It took forever to get my Rogue Level 16, Dex to 30 and Wisdom to 24 to get Star Slinger 6. The list of requirements is a mile long, like you need Travel domain 8, etc.

I can understand nerfing something that is easy to get, but when it takes years to get all the XP to build this type of Rogue, it shouldn't be nerfed because it has some advantages over other builds.

I believe there are only 2 Rogues with Star Slinger level 6, if it was easy there would be many more.

Other Rogues have been able to use bleed and slow for a long time and been able to take down mobs and do well in PVP. Those builds should be nerfed because they are OP in PVP.

Well as far as t3 maybe it is cause there are only a few star slinger rogues who are still playing that got to level 6. However you used to see them all the time in t2. I imagine if more of them stuck with the game we would be seeing more of them in t3.

The thing is star slinger has all the upside of shortbow attacks, none of the downsides, and its really fast speed makes it easily spammable. Add daredevil and reactive of choice and that one attack becomes a beast.

However, star slinger by itself isnt the only problem with rogue builds and I wholeheartedly agree that there needs to be some nerfing done.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of the Kathalpas Coalition and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
 
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