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How could rogues be balanced out?

Paddy Fitzpatrick
So I redacted my original post, however I still think rogues in general need to be tweaked.

The idea in this game seems to be that all classes should be good at some things but not others and no one class should be good at all, then I think rogues fall into the latter category. I will grant that in PvE they may not be able to do everything but they do come close. Between many options of range and melee and the ability to stack DoTs and status effects quickly makes them excel in most situations.

In PvP they also outshine most other classes, even more so than PvE. Very few class builds can stand up to them, let alone have any advantages. They can do almost all. The only thing a straight rogue can't do normally is heal but between potions and bloodblocks that isn't an issue. Also if they decide to branch into cleric they can heal and get star slinger on top of what they can already do.

Any ideas?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Azure_Zero
Well All the Systems are not in yet.

Once alignments and deities are put in along with their restrictions, the Star Slinger rogue would need to be; NG,CG,or CN, follow Desna, be attached to a settlement that accepts that alignment and access to a settlement(s) that will allow them to get all that needed training.

That'll start limiting things since once those systems go in and they DON'T meet the alignment and or Deity requirements they'll loose access to the star slinger. Just like how Channel Positive and Channel Negative will be alignment locked as well.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Very true.

My question also is for straight rogue builds too, not just rogue cleric ones. I do agree with the notion that there are other rogue builds which are as powerful or almost as powerful as the star slinger one. The issue isnt limited to just that one attack.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
WxCougar of KOTC
I am a pure T3 Scout and Cut-Throat Rogue (with some crafting skills) using dagger and shortbow. In my experience, I actually didn't start feeling useful until I hit T3. I felt very vulnerable at T1 and T2 and couldn't take anything on my own above a yellow (in very small groups) without having a ton of healing capability. At T3 I can take reds now and the low end purple if I am lucky. I don't expect to tank anything and spend a great deal of PVE running away : ). (I don't use potions and only rely on tokens for healing). I feel that is the right amount of running and fighting for my build. As far as damage out put I feel I am not over powering any other member of our parties. I am not under represented either as they can tell when I am not contributing.

As to PvP, I have very little experience with that and it wasn't a pretty sight (but then I am new to the whole concept so I can't really compare my "sad performance" in PvP at low end T2) smile.
Keeper's Pass (NG) - Respecting life, protecting freedom, united against tyranny. We are a Crafting Settlement with friendly people and welcome many play styles including casual and Role playing. For more information check our Traveler's Guide to Keeper's Pass at https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/109/. If you wish to join with us in Keeper's Pass come visit us at our website at http://www.kotcguild.com/.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
WxCougar of KOTC
I am a pure T3 Scout and Cut-Throat Rogue (with some crafting skills) using dagger and shortbow. In my experience, I actually didn't start feeling useful until I hit T3. I felt very vulnerable at T1 and T2 and couldn't take anything on my own above a yellow (in very small groups) without having a ton of healing capability. At T3 I can take reds now and the low end purple if I am lucky. I don't expect to tank anything and spend a great deal of PVE running away : ). (I don't use potions and only rely on tokens for healing). I feel that is the right amount of running and fighting for my build. As far as damage out put I feel I am not over powering any other member of our parties. I am not under represented either as they can tell when I am not contributing.

As to PvP, I have very little experience with that and it wasn't a pretty sight (but then I am new to the whole concept so I can't really compare my "sad performance" in PvP at low end T2) smile.

What reactive are you using? Also, have you tried opportunist or daredevil? If not maybe you could give em a try and let me know what difference they make if any?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Paddy Fitzpatrick
From my own experience I am leveling up a rogue but they arent going to be t3 for a while. I will say so far I have found daredevil to work best and I have done star slinger with daredevil, bleed and slow reactive. Works like a charm every time. Run around, shoot weapon, always have opportunity to self, no slow, and stack two dots and slow in no time. You can finish a mob off any way you like after that.

I also tested both rapier and dagger melee with the same build. As long as you can keep juking to keep opportunity up and you still get all the benefits. It is better at a single target and you need to not get ganged up on (though that goes for anyone). Still I have found it can burn down a target and let you focus on the next, or let you switch between several at once while running. Of course I found it easy to die if you make one slip up but I imagine in t3 I wouldnt be in nearly as much danger.

I havent tested this build with shortbow yet. I'll add that to the list.

As far as PvP goes I havent fought with this toon so I dont know how it would go. I know back in the day my old co leader cormac used a similar build to nice effect in PvP. I am not familiar with other rogue builds that I have fought but no matter what class I have used against them I have found rogue to be the hardest class for me to deal with. Back when everyone was still t2 I had a fighter cleric with healer armor that could hold its own for a little while, but only because the combination of armor features and multiple ways to heal kept me alive and kept the dots at bay.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
WxCougar of KOTC
@ Paddy, I am using Slow Reactions and Bleed for my reactives. I have not tried any other Rogue features. It will be awhile before I will get to that since I am also using this character as the Seneschal and I've been building my xp toward that at the moment.

I should also mention that the character is not maxed out in Rogue yet either (I think she is level 17 but can't remember off hand) since I get distracted by crafting/refining on occasion (in order to bump up stats so I can up her knowledges). I use the term pure since she has no other classes listed (ie cleric, fighter etc).
Keeper's Pass (NG) - Respecting life, protecting freedom, united against tyranny. We are a Crafting Settlement with friendly people and welcome many play styles including casual and Role playing. For more information check our Traveler's Guide to Keeper's Pass at https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/109/. If you wish to join with us in Keeper's Pass come visit us at our website at http://www.kotcguild.com/.
Bringslite
Is it true that T3 Star Slinger or any other combination that is considered "OP" is extremely expensive? Is it true that "upcoming" mechanics will pacify some of these choices that feel "OP" at this time? If they were nerfed now, would that make these build choices absolutely useless when changes kick in?

Seems to me that nerfing too much now, with incomplete overall game mechanics in place now, will just end up causing future problems later. You could also say that maybe with such pinched game development ability now and the unlikely fact that will change in the near future (1-2 years) that the whole "intended end product" should be re examined and refitted to reality.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Bringslite
Is it true that T3 Star Slinger or any other combination that is considered "OP" is extremely expensive? Is it true that "upcoming" mechanics will pacify some of these choices that feel "OP" at this time? If they were nerfed now, would that make these build choices absolutely useless when changes kick in?

T3 Star Slinger build is the only one that is more expensive due to having to also level up in cleric. Other crazy good combinations can be done with just straight rogue.

Seems to me that nerfing too much now, with incomplete overall game mechanics in place now, will just end up causing future problems later. You could also say that maybe with such pinched game development ability now and the unlikely fact that will change in the near future (1-2 years) that the whole "intended end product" should be re examined and refitted to reality.

Well that is the kicker, still keeping rogue builds good but not insane may be more difficult than we think. There are some areas that we can talk about though that do stand out.

As far as refined and refitted to reality goes, what does this mean?
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
"As far as refined and refitted to reality goes, what does this mean?"

Well it means, how long can/should we use the excuse of "The game is incomplete as originally envisioned" and as expected population wise. Things will be better when all the mechanics are in and when 10,000+ are playing…

Not that I don't appreciate both the original design AND ESPECIALLY the incredible work that Bob and Cole have done and continue to put in. They have made the game MUCH better. I also really appreciate Lisa sticking it out.

I have to wonder just a little bit, though, if maybe shaving off some of the more complicated systems and polishing more of the in-game and usable systems wouldn't be a better approach. I.E. Maybe they should shoot for a target more near a workable and "sooner achieved" end state that is marketable even if that is far less than the original intent. Seems like that is what they have been doing, but maybe it has been too much geared toward fulfilling KS promises and complicating that for future mechanical addition than just getting a "lesser workable game" up and running.

I also feel that what we have now is not going to draw crowds willing to pay a AAA MMO price tag. I don't feel good about saying that, but it is my personal impression.

So Tdlr: refitted to reality means - just get what you got working now to work right now and do not be so concerned about original end intent until you can afford a larger team. So don't be afraid to balance feats for NOW.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
 
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