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A Heart to Heart With Some of the Northerners

Paddy Fitzpatrick
So I put it here since I wasnt sure where else to put this.

In response to this:

Stilachio Thrax
Paddy Fitzpatrick
There are however certain settlements that have had us blacklisted for no apparent reason so…they are fair game to me until they decide to do otherwise.

Maybe you should choose your associates more carefully then…

I do have one question.

Given that

1) We have tried to form good relations in the past only to have a knife plunged in our back for our efforts
2) Said knife consisted of joining in with another group to gangbang us when fighting for a settlement.
3) Even after that we tried to work some sort of treaty over hex and land disputes only for said treaties to be rendered moot
4) The reasons they were rendered moot were either people from the North were either not told about ot claimed they weren't and didn't care, or the terms of the agreement were rules lawyered to death.
5) Unless I am mistaken, the worst we ever did to Northerners was either try to rob a few of your guys (usually unsuccessfully), later on raid some holdings that have done no damage to your faction in any way (not even enough to be a minor nuisance) and other minor things like that.

How am I the one that keeps questionable company? I'm just trying to understand how people who claim to be 100% non evil have pulled far more devious things than we ever have. It is a bit confusing.

Keep in mind all this is just my experiences from when I was an active leader. This does not cover anything that has occurred since or stuff that anyone else may have experienced. I'm only speaking for myself here.

Also keep in mind that despite appearances I am still giving the benefit of the doubt. I don't have an issue with a faction trying to absorb as many settlements as possible under their roof by any means necessary. It is the seeming hypocrisy while doing so that is problematic.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Paddy Fitzpatrick
So I put it here since I wasnt sure where else to put this.

In response to this:

Stilachio Thrax
Paddy Fitzpatrick
There are however certain settlements that have had us blacklisted for no apparent reason so…they are fair game to me until they decide to do otherwise.

Maybe you should choose your associates more carefully then…

I do have one question.

Given that

1) We have tried to form good relations in the past only to have a knife plunged in our back for our efforts
2) Said knife consisted of joining in with another group to gangbang us when fighting for a settlement.
3) Even after that we tried to work some sort of treaty over hex and land disputes only for said treaties to be rendered moot
4) The reasons they were rendered moot were either people from the North were either not told about ot claimed they weren't and didn't care, or the terms of the agreement were rules lawyered to death.
5) Unless I am mistaken, the worst we ever did to Northerners was either try to rob a few of your guys (usually unsuccessfully), later on raid some holdings that have done no damage to your faction in any way (not even enough to be a minor nuisance) and other minor things like that.

How am I the one that keeps questionable company? I'm just trying to understand how people who claim to be 100% non evil have pulled far more devious things than we ever have. It is a bit confusing.

Keep in mind all this is just my experiences from when I was an active leader. This does not cover anything that has occurred since or stuff that anyone else may have experienced. I'm only speaking for myself here.

Also keep in mind that despite appearances I am still giving the benefit of the doubt. I don't have an issue with a faction trying to absorb as many settlements as possible under their roof by any means necessary. It is the seeming hypocrisy while doing so that is problematic.

If I may, I guess that #5 is more impactful on relations than you assume it to be.

As for the rest I think that through a mixture of RP(best case scenario in a populated game) there has to be someone to contest against, fluctuating activities during certain past wars/conflicts, jumping to conclusions during certain negotiations that were incomplete, general misunderstanding and overall lack of communication between AND Within all sides led to everything that happened in the past.

Lots of things(from ALL sides), including leadership changes, have happened since then and will/could happen in the future but they are certainly limited if such old grudges are kept with blinded eyes to the immediate NOW and future. As long as grudges are held, attempts at progress are futile.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I did say this wasn't an exhaustive list, just a few examples. You compare who has done more harm to whom and whose word is their bond amd whose word is not and in general our track records speak for themselves.

Yeah these were the things that started down this path but things certainly haven't gotten better since. Sure I am not blameless but what is a holding raid that yields no tangible result and does no actual harm compared to going to war and launching a surprise attack that had much greater and far reaching effects? Do keep in mind there were many times over the years where we would have been perfectly justified in saying that you guys had carried out acts of war against us. We ultimately chose not to do so but it wasn't due to lack of justification.

The issue ultimately comes down to trust rather than to any one particular incident.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Double post
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I did say this wasn't an exhaustive list, just a few examples. You compare who has done more harm to whom and whose word is their bond amd whose word is not and in general our track records speak for themselves.

Yeah these were the things that started down this path but things certainly haven't gotten better since. Sure I am not blameless but what is a holding raid that yields no tangible result and does no actual harm compared to going to war and launching a surprise attack that had much greater and far reaching effects? Do keep in mind there were many times over the years where we would have been perfectly justified in saying that you guys had carried out acts of war against us. We ultimately chose not to do so but it wasn't due to lack of justification.

The issue ultimately comes down to trust rather than to any one particular incident.
Paddy, obviously your character has a particular grudge. I wouldn't mind reading whatever it is. What solid deals were broken? What pledged and affirmed agreements were violated? Like I posted, so long as your fur is up, there isn't any way for progress.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
You already have. I dont have the time right now to go into every single incident and every single detail of them. Like I said this is not an exhaustive list and I am just going on my own dealings. I certainly may not be the only one who has something to say but again I only speak for me.

What will suffice for now is just owning your actions rather than explaining them away or pretending they are something else. I do like it when people take ownership of what they do and take some responsibility. It would be nice as a gesture of good will.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Paddy- The only conflicts that I can recall which involved you and yours involved periods that there were absolutely no agreements between you and the North. There were times (very few or only one) that you and I were trying to discuss agreements but neither would yield on points and so there were no deals made of any kind. Anything else is your character's fabrication.

For one thing, a single player has never supposed to be able to make such large agreements unilaterally for the North in any of it's forms or shapes. No one has ever said or represented otherwise as far as I know. We are interested in anyone that wants to "play nice" and not be blacklisted because what we want right now is to build and trade. If you are not serious then you are wasting my time.

Meanwhile, you continue to drag at the (now) Commonwealth with pointless critiques, comments and (secret, you think) PVP aggressions all the while proposing that you are an injured party at no or very little fault or responsibility.

Since we all see things differently(I certainly see the past differently than you, for instance) and we all (I believe) want to move forward, perhaps we should all just drop the past and actually move forward?

If you are serious about getting off of Commonwealth blacklists then cease and desist those activities. We'll talk more then. Okay?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Paddy Fitzpatrick
So now you are calling me a liar? I see…

That aside, I have been referring to more than any conversation you and I had in the past. Later on there were other attempts made to at least get along between our respective factions. Things like border disputes, permissions for sharing hexes and gathering, and even on those seemingly simple matters agreements were broken. First we make an agreement, then some northerners didnt even get the memo and go after us anyway. Then trying to salvage that situation results in one side constantly reinterpreting and bending the meaning of what we agreed upon to the point where it goes against the spirit of the whole thing. Finally even when trying to get things more explicitly written down, then one side just scraps it anyway.

After a while one gets the impression that diplomacy is kind of a lost cause when even basic stuff couldn't be agreed upon. Keep in mind most of these arose after the Concordia Affair not beforehand and I was usually not involved in those talks.

If the shoe were on the other foot, what would you think of that? Would that make you hesitant to trust someone in future endeavors?

I originally didnt have any intention to say any of this by the way. Some things did need to be cleared up though as it turned out. We may not remember everythong quite the same but one thing that is true regardless is neither side has been blameless over the years. It would be nice for that to be acknowledged at least.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Bringslite
Not calling you a liar, Paddy. Pointing out that there were no agreements solid that you and I ever concluded. Concordia(actions) were also rushed through during those talks with you and before I had any say in them.

Take a look at what all has gone on and is going on. You seem to want recognition for major annoyances done to you. You seem to dismiss major (from our point of view) annoyances done to us. You dismiss all your actions like they are minor. We dismiss ours like they are minor. Nobody can be right if no recognition of what annoys the other is recognized.


After Concordia
I have to admit that I don't know about those, don't recall them, wasn't involved in them. Sounds like a bunch of misunderstandings and that very well may have been our fault for bad communication. Why are your Holdings on Commonwealth claimed Territory? Why do you raid us and not at least say when or where? Hmmm…. No, Kalthapas is the victim here….
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Stilachio Thrax
Paddy Fitzpatrick
5) Unless I am mistaken, the worst we ever did to Northerners was either try to rob a few of your guys (usually unsuccessfully), later on raid some holdings that have done no damage to your faction in any way (not even enough to be a minor nuisance) and other minor things like that.

This is the key thing- you (collective bandit settlements) have attacked OV members and allies, and attacked Commonwealth holdings. Whether or not you were successful is irrelevant. But that is not the only reason, as long before you were a member of the bandit settlements, and before you were even playing, members of those settlements engaged in attacks on our members and attempted to strip mine a T3 hex in our territory.

Paddy, if you were still at Dun Baille and not affiliated with the bandit settlements, I'd probably give you access to OV facilities as long as you didn't attack our members and holdings. However, you often come across as overly hostile to anyone from the North on forums and that doesn't help your cause.

In regards to your points #1-#4, I was not a party in the event itself or the immediate aftermath. I did not like how it was handled by either party, and I voiced that to the Commonwealth members involved.

Moving forward, understand that OV is a Lawful Good settlement, and one that will support paladins no less. It doesn't mean I won't be interested in a treaty, agreement, trade or whatever in the future, but it does mean your history of banditry against the Commonwealth will be taken into account- as I'm sure you'll take into account your perceived slights.

To be clear, I speak only for myself and Ozem's.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
 
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