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EE16/Roadmap

Bringslite
Bob
Bringslite
Assuming Enchantment isn't EE16 but rather EE15.x…

Numbers are just numbers, but we're treating Enchanting as EE16, both because of the amount of time involved and the overall impact on the game. We're currently thinking it'll be ready around the end of October, but we're still in early days on implementing it. That said, on a local build I can give myself an enchanted item, and the simpler ones do in fact give me the appropriate stat bonuses when equipped.

Hehe so we are discussing things for beyond EE16! Thank you for clarifying! smile
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Edam
Bringslite
Bob
It may be that there aren't many PVP enthusiasts currently here or that PVP isn't attractive, whatever type gear is risked. The game clearly has a PVP bent and yet they (PVP enthusiasts) are not here.

Find the ailment. There is a combination of reasons and an untapped market of player types missing from this game. smile

The very original (now long gone) game concept seemed designed around a combination of large scale PvP (100's of people in a battle at a time with some sort of group controls available to assigned leaders where equipment is pretty much supplied by the groups involved) which attract people wanting to plan grand campaigns over long periods of time and fight on a big scale and a separate second set of people with a builder/crafter bent who will PvP if they have to on occasion to defend the settlement but not 24/7. Skirmish PvP was to be handled by the faction system.

There was even a lot of talk about making random PvP difficult to support and discourage PvP outside these set big battles and faction warfare. Rotters Hole was originally intended to be the only place a skirmish small gang PvP player who wanted to start fights outside the formal faction system could survive.

Those two proposed original groups (large scale territorial PvPers and crafter/builders) actually function well together, nulsec in EVE is pretty much just that.

Instead of the big battles what we got was a series of indefinite tower defense battles were the defender had to turn up week in week out forever to defend regardless of anyone turning up. Meanwhile the game gradually acquired a predominance of small gang/skirmish PvPers who tend as a group to want to be recognised for personal combat skills (kill mails, forum notoriety etc) and shine as individuals.

This is a valid way to play games but these guys are generally not compatible with the builder/crafter types who they tend to see as victims to feed on. The EVE equivalent is the faction war and scrappy small gang roams of EVE lowsec which has a bit of a wild west spin. These were the players in the forever war that typically complained about being "blobbed" if there was an organised defense and ran around attacking any random they came across that was not in there group.

Perhaps if we had got faction warfare to keep the skirmishers happy and also some big battle command and control mechanics earlier to make the settlement warfare more interesting and tactical the situation may have been different. However it is what it is.

Games that rely on skirmish PvP as the main population (EVE does not they are about 25%) need to take one of two distinct directions:
  1. get rid of player crafting and have weapons and armor as something you just pay real cash for or pick up on the fly fortnite style (or some combination of the above)
  2. make settlement management and crafting REALLY basic and easy so people can do it casually with an alt on a random day off and focus on running around being LEET and killing one another the rest of the time

The game is basically suffering from a split personality were a lot of the design decisions about the game are based in the first model even though the mechanics for big battles never turned up whilst meanwhile a lot of current players (including some forever war veterans) seem to think it was always meant to be a skirmish banditry small gang PvP game.

THE ISSUE - returning to the original concept is impossible (water under the bridge) but the game is not really suitable to turn into a small gang kill fest either.
Bringslite
I remember pretty much the same thing. Not so sure that the most important original concepts are impossible to achieve. Just need players which become funding which become "features, mechanics and polish". It won't be achieved for a long, long time but so long as Paizo doesn't have to give up on it, there is hope.

Despite a lack of players, the PVP system is well balanced for Random and Organized. There is the ability for territorial conquest action and there is the ability for "small gang/solo random action" which the population has SOME say over via High SEC hexes. There is the ability to get Random PVP and the ability to avoid it fairly easily. It does need some enthusiastic and hearty polishing, I'll admit. smile I feel like that is about the best possible scenario for a game trying to do all forms of PVP, or maybe provide the most possible freedoms for players to solve their own problems.

So the main aim here should be figuring out how to get more players into the game and to keep them. After the current "EE16" I would focus on that exclusively. Like I would do some work on PVP(looting and stuff) to get that market sector interested. The game was conceived and designed to be an "MMORPG". Nothing is going to work right until it's population can be measured in at least the 1000's.

Edit: I would do some work on pricing models, PVP, cash shop and not necessarily in that order. It isn't my show. smile
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
You are a Troll
Well put Edam. The last thing we need is roving bands ganking people at the banks again and thinking that was somehow fun for anyone. However, PvP needs a lot of work, as does more interesting daily activities for players.

My suggestions for PvP:

1. Flag people with a timer when they enter a low security hex, or maybe just when they enter a monster hex so that they can't simply skip across the hex border into a high sec hex to avoid all PvP. Have this timer flag last 10 - 30 seconds after they leave the low sec hex so that they are still available for PvP and not invulnerable as they are now.

2. Heavily tax both High Sec and Low sec holding settings. Viola - coin sink.

3. Make it impossible to ring a monster hex with High Sec hexes. Maybe medium Security is the best you can do when up against a monster hex.

4. Get rid of all high security hexes (except a ring or double ring around TK or something) or at least get rid of the player created high sec hexes but double the Reputation penalty for unsanctioned attacks and halve the rate at which reputation is regained. This would allow for PvP in more places, but could seriously knock the attacking character out of being able to go to town for weeks instead of days.

My suggestions for daily activities:

1. More achievements to earn and some kind of reward (other than influence) for earning them, even if those achievements are purely cosmetic.

2. Do something with the Badlands hexes. Random gushers? Random groups of high level mobs? Random lootable chests or husks?

3. Have more than once a year *Escalating Escalation* type events

4. Turn spreading back on for all T1 escalations or at least all goblin escalations - don't those things breed like rats? Have them shutdown any holdings in hexes that they spread to and/or change the security setting to low in hexes they spread to.

5. Have one random escalation a week or a month give out guaranteed Aeon Stone boss drops but only if there is a full party. Have the Crier in TK shout out the next hex location each Sunday night or something.
Maxen
You are a Troll
Well put Edam. The last thing we need is roving bands ganking people at the banks again and thinking that was somehow fun for anyone. However, PvP needs a lot of work, as does more interesting daily activities for players.

My suggestions for PvP:

1. Flag people with a timer when they enter a low security hex, or maybe just when they enter a monster hex so that they can't simply skip across the hex border into a high sec hex to avoid all PvP. Have this timer flag last 10 - 30 seconds after they leave the low sec hex so that they are still available for PvP and not invulnerable as they are now.

2. Heavily tax both High Sec and Low sec holding settings. Viola - coin sink.

3. Make it impossible to ring a monster hex with High Sec hexes. Maybe medium Security is the best you can do when up against a monster hex.

4. Get rid of all high security hexes (except a ring or double ring around TK or something) or at least get rid of the player created high sec hexes but double the Reputation penalty for unsanctioned attacks and halve the rate at which reputation is regained. This would allow for PvP in more places, but could seriously knock the attacking character out of being able to go to town for weeks instead of days.

My suggestions for daily activities:

1. More achievements to earn and some kind of reward (other than influence) for earning them, even if those achievements are purely cosmetic.

2. Do something with the Badlands hexes. Random gushers? Random groups of high level mobs? Random lootable chests or husks?

3. Have more than once a year *Escalating Escalation* type events

4. Turn spreading back on for all T1 escalations or at least all goblin escalations - don't those things breed like rats? Have them shutdown any holdings in hexes that they spread to and/or change the security setting to low in hexes they spread to.

5. Have one random escalation a week or a month give out guaranteed Aeon Stone boss drops but only if there is a full party. Have the Crier in TK shout out the next hex location each Sunday night or something.

+1 to all of this.
BlackMoria
There are a number of reasons that PvP isn't worth my time and effort. I fought in the Forever War and I remember well the week I spent about 40 hours defending against the Xelias/bandit people. In one week…

I can only speak for myself but here is why PvP is a sucker's game:

PvP didn't put a single copper piece in my pocket. Bandit and Xelias raiders didn't carry anything on them. I risk gear fighting them and got NOTHING in return. So, on a risk to cost ratio = no worth my time.

The totality of the Forever War is best summed up as a ego trip… who had the bigger cock. Territory was essentially meaningless - taking towers didn't inconvenience either side. In fact, the Xelias folks didn't care a wit about territory - it was simply a way to goad and facilitate PvP fights. I spend countless hours standing around a tower waiting for the Xelias people to show up or not show up. So, on a time to fun ratio = no worth my time.

Whatever form PvP takes, it needs to address the risk to cost ratio and the time to fun ratio. Currently, it is a huge negative on either scale. So despite this being my first MMO and trying the PvP, I find it neither rewarding or fun. Which is why I hate it.

So, address the reward issue and the time invested, fun achieved issue doing PvP or people who view it like I do will simply try to avoid it because it not fun or worth our time. I don't believe in fighting battles over who is the biggest bad ass. I am far too old and crotchety to care about that.
Smitty
What I recall most about the forever war was there was risk in the game - wearing a settlement tag and being in some areas of the map was dangerous. Obtaining resources from some areas was not a trivial task . I remember being at risk of being attacked as much as I recall putting others at risk.

So you may just remember the tower pvp being the bane of your existence but the overall game play ( in my opinion ) was 100 times better than what we have today. The threat of having to turn and run or defend yourself makes this game better. Without that risk – it’s a gathering and crafting simulator ( or just running..).

Also The tower guard duty thing has been addressed - holdings now can be protected by neighbor hexes so we can easily monitor hexes that are vulnerable to attack - the map notifies us when they are attacked - PvP windows are only 3 days long - and we pick the days and amount of time we have to defend. Not to mention folks get a 2 day notice if conquest is the attackers goal. -

If anything the pendulum swung firmly against having you stand around during a PvP window to guard things ..

Bringslite
I agree that the PVP process is better than it was. I also agree that it isn't really rewarding yet except in the rare gather or "goods mule porting" snag, maybe. There is still something fundamentally wrong though. There simply not enough players around for the stuff to work right and the world is way too big for that small number of players.

Look at recent things. Bob set us up a +5 Keep in Rotter's Hole so that we could try PVP with less overall costs. No one seems interested in using it. "It's too far away", etc…

Figure out why PVP is still pretty much unattractive and you will be well on your way to knowing how to make it attractive.
-If it is a matter of wanting to fight at max capacity (T3 gear) but T3 gear is supposed to be "special occasion" only, maybe that should be re examined
-If it is too little reward for risk of gear loss or other costs (Influence, etc..) then that should be looked at
-If it is just plain a low pop matter and you really want more PVP then do some work on smaller things to get more players into the game: Pricing models, loyalty incentives, new roles, alternate recipes, whatever that takes, etc…
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Maxen
Smitty
What I recall most about the forever war was there was risk in the game - wearing a settlement tag and being in some areas of the map was dangerous. Obtaining resources from some areas was not a trivial task . I remember being at risk of being attacked as much as I recall putting others at risk.

I remember the day the Forever War started quite well. I was a member of Hammerfall and had logged in at the Auction House in Keurz Bernstein (I think I have that right). I was attacked immediately upon logging in. I managed to not die and quickly talked my way out of further attacks. They let me get my purchased goods and leave. It was also the same day I moved north. I was still relatively new to PvP at the time and didn’t want to have to play everyday looking over my shoulder.

I feel quite differently about PvP now and look forward to meaningful PvP returning to the game.
BlackMoria
I agree that conditionals for PvP have changed… for the better or not can be debated. But that doesn't change the equation. A bandit attacking me while I am gathering is assured of some sort of a payoff if he wins, since I am engaged in a activity that I most likely have something. What in his pocketizzz, Precious? Even if it is hemp or coal, that stuff is valuable. The bandit is going to get some sort of payoff. It might be modest, it might be huge but he is likely to get something. For the bandit, this is fun. And it feeds into the weird thing that goes on in our heads about gambling and drives that behavior.

Now, on the other hand, if I get lucky and defeat the bandit. I get to keep my stuff. Yipey FFFFing Doo. No bandit worth his/her salt is likely to have anything on him. Same thing if I am defending a holding. The raiders are coming with empty pockets. In short, I can PvP all I like under the new conditionals, but unless I embrace a bandit mind-set and attack gatherers or mule skinners, my only payoff is survival and keeping my stuff, which I will point out I get anyhow if the bandit didn't attack.

And since bandits aren't likely to explode in a bright fireworks that shower me with coins, recipes or Aeon Stones (which I would love to have in the game, BTW), why is the appeal for me? Why would I even care about PvP? There is no win condition, no fun condition for me if I am the person being imposed upon and it amounts to a big, fat zero, zilch, nada for me in terms of a fun experience or a profitable one. Make it so that bandits have to carry a gold piece on them that goes to the victor if they lose and I am there, brother. Because I get a payday other than survival and keeping my stuff, which I have anyway without the bandit encounter. Otherwise, it is not worth my time yet. Factions warfare and threading changes that equation but that isn't in the game yet. I have hope that PvP becomes meaningful but to state it is now means the PvPers will never see the point I am attempting to make.
Gathering pays off - either for myself or my settlement. I gain something. Escalations pay off. I gain something. Get attacked by a bandit - win or loss, there is no pay off for me - I get nothing from it except an opportunity to bitch. Why would I get excited by getting nothing. As I said, I don't care who the best PvPer is or who has the bigger kill list. That is of no interest to me.
 
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