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EE 16 Release Notes

Stilachio Thrax
Maxen
I wasn’t going to say anything until I did more gathering research, but I believe the salvage drop rates need to be looked at. To be clear, I acknowledge that an Enchantment should be special. It should not be easy to make, but there still needs to be a balance in challenge versus playability.

By way of example, I am trying to gather the mats to make a T1+3 Flaming enchantment. After much, much mining I got the Beryl (maybe 1 unit in every 15 to 20 pulls). However, one of the salvage components is Sacrificial Ash (going by memory here) and it appears only the Molochs drop it. So logically, I head to the Moloch home hex. After nearly two hours of grinding mobs, I come away with one unit. I need 38. For a T1+3 Enchantment. Again, it should be challenging/difficult to get the mats, but if Molochs are the only source of Sacrificial Ash and they’re not giving it up in a reasonable quantity, frustration will trump fun.

This. Bob, you did a great job with the breadth of new mats and salvage needed, but the delivery system is horrid. I have a wide variety of the new materials, and not enough of any to make anything with them. With the quantities needed, and the rate at which they drop, and the specificity of mobs/drops, Enchantments aren't worth the grind involved. The comparable systems in PnP are fun and don't lose sight of the fact it is a game played for fun. As currently implemented, it isn't fun or worthwhile.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Bob
Maxen
By way of example, I am trying to gather the mats to make a T1+3 Flaming enchantment. After much, much mining I got the Beryl (maybe 1 unit in every 15 to 20 pulls). However, one of the salvage components is Sacrificial Ash (going by memory here) and it appears only the Molochs drop it. So logically, I head to the Moloch home hex. After nearly two hours of grinding mobs, I come away with one unit. I need 38.

I'll be revisiting the drop rates for these, as there are definitely some places when my quick-and-dirty initial numbers didn't work out quite as intended, but overall the enchanting salvage items are intended to be fairly rare drops. That said, 1 unit of Moloch Sacrificial Ashes after 2 hours of killing Moloch mobs does sound like a particularly bad run on the random number rolls, assuming you were killing mobs at a pretty rapid clip. I'd need to know the actual number of kills to say for sure, but I'd expect 4 to be a more typical number for that much time. Still, when 4 is the expected average number, 1 isn't really an unlikely number to have happen on occasion.

Also, it's important to remember that you don't actually need 38 units for a single T1+3 enchantment. Those 38 units will get you 4 Basic Singed Sheets, enough for 4 of those enchantments, so technically you only really need slightly less than 10 of them for a single enchantment. The whole economic system from gathering/salvaging to refining to crafting to enchanting, was never really balanced around "how hard would it be to go from having zero ingredients to a single specific fully enchanted item doing everything with my own characters." Refining recipes in particular often have their output quantities set relatively high, on the assumption that there will always be another equally valuable use for any "excess" output beyond your immediate needs. In large part, that's meant to encourage trade of any such excess, so we want to make sure any changes don't go too far and undermine that incentive.
Maxen
Bob
Maxen
By way of example, I am trying to gather the mats to make a T1+3 Flaming enchantment. After much, much mining I got the Beryl (maybe 1 unit in every 15 to 20 pulls). However, one of the salvage components is Sacrificial Ash (going by memory here) and it appears only the Molochs drop it. So logically, I head to the Moloch home hex. After nearly two hours of grinding mobs, I come away with one unit. I need 38.

I'll be revisiting the drop rates for these, as there are definitely some places when my quick-and-dirty initial numbers didn't work out quite as intended, but overall the enchanting salvage items are intended to be fairly rare drops. That said, 1 unit of Moloch Sacrificial Ashes after 2 hours of killing Moloch mobs does sound like a particularly bad run on the random number rolls, assuming you were killing mobs at a pretty rapid clip. I'd need to know the actual number of kills to say for sure, but I'd expect 4 to be a more typical number for that much time. Still, when 4 is the expected average number, 1 isn't really an unlikely number to have happen on occasion.

Also, it's important to remember that you don't actually need 38 units for a single T1+3 enchantment. Those 38 units will get you 4 Basic Singed Sheets, enough for 4 of those enchantments, so technically you only really need slightly less than 10 of them for a single enchantment. The whole economic system from gathering/salvaging to refining to crafting to enchanting, was never really balanced around "how hard would it be to go from having zero ingredients to a single specific fully enchanted item doing everything with my own characters." Refining recipes in particular often have their output quantities set relatively high, on the assumption that there will always be another equally valuable use for any "excess" output beyond your immediate needs. In large part, that's meant to encourage trade of any such excess, so we want to make sure any changes don't go too far and undermine that incentive.

@Bob, Yes, I was in the hex laying waste to Molochs with a T3 character with better than average knowledge skills, so you can imagine my frustration with such a low drop rate. The escalation was at zero when I entered the hex, so I took that down first because I wasn’t sure if that would nerf the drops.

And I understand that 38 sacrificial ash will give me 4 basic singed leathers, and that I only need one for the enhancement, but that enhancement will be applied to a sword that will eventually be destroyed, requiring a new enhancement to be applied. Believe me, I’m glad I’ll have the next three already lined up. smile

I know that we’re the guinea pigs before OE, so thanks for looking into the drop rates and adjusting as necessary.
Stilachio Thrax
Maxen
And I understand that 38 sacrificial ash will give me 4 basic singed leathers, and that I only need one for the enhancement, but that enhancement will be applied to a sword that will eventually be destroyed, requiring a new enhancement to be applied. Believe me, I’m glad I’ll have the next three already lined up. smile

This raises an interesting question- Should we be able to recover enchantments, at the expense of the item it is attached to?
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Bob
Maxen
@Bob, Yes, I was in the hex laying waste to Molochs with a T3 character with better than average knowledge skills, so you can imagine my frustration with such a low drop rate. The escalation was at zero when I entered the hex, so I took that down first because I wasn’t sure if that would nerf the drops.

Oh, well that may actually be an even more relevant point. For some of the escalations, you're assumption that being at zero might nerf the drops is correct. In those escalations, every mob other than the boss that spawns after the strength drops to 500 will have reduced drops, and in particular won't drop any enchanting salvage. Any mobs that were spawned before that will continue to drop their standard escalation loot.

However, Moloch Cultists doesn't have that set up yet, so that wouldn't have caused any problem in this particular case, but I suspect it does lead us to the real issue: Only mobs that spawn as part of an escalation ever drop the enchanting salvage, so any mobs that spawned after you killed the boss wouldn't drop any escalation salvage. You probably had about an hour to kill any stragglers, with the percentage of stragglers dropping steadily over that time. I initially overlooked that possibility because you did get at least 1 unit of ashes, but you probably got that unit pretty early on, then nothing after that, which would explain the low number.
Bob
Stilachio Thrax
This raises an interesting question- Should we be able to recover enchantments, at the expense of the item it is attached to?

I wrote the enchanting recipes generally thinking that lots of the ingredients get used up as part of the enchanting process, in much the way that coal gets used up in the smelting process. If we ever do create some kind of item teardown/salvaging feature, we'd probably figure out some way to include the enchantment in that process. That's something we've talked about doing, but I doubt it will be on the schedule very soon.
Flari-Merchant
Bob:"That's something we've talked about doing, but I doubt it will be on the schedule very soon."

"Aside from polishing up Enchantment any way we could get a tease at what might be next?" <–Asked the Heartless Impatient Demon… smile
Maxen
Bob
…but I suspect it does lead us to the real issue: Only mobs that spawn as part of an escalation ever drop the enchanting salvage, so any mobs that spawned after you killed the boss wouldn't drop any escalation salvage. You probably had about an hour to kill any stragglers, with the percentage of stragglers dropping steadily over that time. I initially overlooked that possibility because you did get at least 1 unit of ashes, but you probably got that unit pretty early on, then nothing after that, which would explain the low number.

I believe you are right. I seem to recall getting it early on because I had an "All right!" moment thinking I'd spend a couple hours in the hex and getting the salvage I needed.

So, questions:

Is that by design?, or;
Should home hex monsters only drop their enchanting salvage during the actual escalation window?
Should they be able to drop it anytime in the home hex or a regular escalation?
Should any random encounter mob associated with that salvage drop it?
Bob
Maxen
Is that by design?, or;
Should home hex monsters only drop their enchanting salvage during the actual escalation window?
Should they be able to drop it anytime in the home hex or a regular escalation?
Should any random encounter mob associated with that salvage drop it?

It's by design in that the loot system currently sets a mob's loot tables when it spawns, and we just added these drops to their standard loot tables to make it easy to implement. They were intended to only drop for official escalation mobs, not for the standard mobs that are always in the home hexes or for the random mobs that appear in other hexes. It is admittedly harder to tell the difference between a standard home hex mob and an escalation mob, but they usually don't overlap for long.

We might eventually look into ways to make it a little more obvious what's going on, but overall you'll find that if you start killing mobs while an escalation is running, you'll start getting enchanting salvage reasonably soon, and if you start killing mobs while an escalation isn't running, you probably won't get any enchanting salvage unless you're clearly attacking a straggler (so not predictable in a home hex).
Bob
Flari-Merchant
"Aside from polishing up Enchantment any way we could get a tease at what might be next?" <–Asked the Heartless Impatient Demon… smile

We were ridiculously busy getting the event together before we all headed out on vacation, and just got back in the office today, so we haven't had a chance to get beyond some preliminary conversations yet. We have started talking about that and should have something to report back soon, and we're also fixing some other annoying little bugs while we're at it.
 
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