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Experience Point Options

Bob
New players often worry about wasting XP on feats they’ll later regret purchasing, or feats that undergo changes during development, so we’re providing options to reduce those worries.

  • Players can forget the feats they’ve spent XP on and respec their characters, though at some cost, such as needing to re-earn achievements and not getting back any coin or items used to learn those feats.
  • XP can be purchased using Azoth, though with some limitations, and always less efficiently than it can be earned over time.
  • Individual characters can be subscribed to earn XP over time.

Thoughts/Concerns/Questions?
Bringslite
@ Bob

Will players be able to both sub to earn over time AND buy more xp with Azoth?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
harneloot
Does the *individual characters can be subscribed to earn xp over time* mean you can add more training characters to the same account for less than the full $15/month each it now costs? So, maybe $15 for one toon then $5 for each additional one on the account that is training xp?
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Edam
Bob
New players often worry about wasting XP on feats they’ll later regret purchasing, or feats that undergo changes during development, so we’re providing options to reduce those worries.

  • Players can forget the feats they’ve spent XP on and respec their characters, though at some cost, such as needing to re-earn achievements and not getting back any coin or items used to learn those feats.

Thoughts/Concerns/Questions?

The obvious use for this will be veteran players that learnt multiple useless feats like cross-domains or cross-schools to bump early ability scores but now have maxed out that ability with high level expendables etc can recover a few hundred thousand XP or more by cashing in those old feats.

That said a few interesting issues arise:

1. What if you unlearn feats that were specifically learnt as prerequisites for other feats you also know? Do those other feats stop functioning.

2. Also - does forgetting a feat reduce the relevant ability by the amount learning that feat added in the first place? If so what happens if the relevant ability drops below the gateway needed to qualify for some other feat you also know. Does that feat stop working? More importantly if the feat with a now too-low score stops functioning does it also stop functioning as a gateway for other feats you know that needed that now non-functioning feat as a gateway? Do those other feats also stop working? TL&DR version does the game track prerequisites or do feats just work forever once learnt.

3. Related to the above, does the game track ability scores above 30. If not will unlearning a feat related to that ability reduce the ability below 30 even if the character should really have been at say 35 or 40.

4. Further … if instead, learnt feats DO continue to work even after any prerequisite gateways are unlearnt or prerequisite ability scores are lost, what is to stop people exploiting this by learning a heap of feats just to get the ability scores and prerequisite feats required to achieve a particular gateway, then learning the desired feat and immediately unlearning all the feats they just learnt to get the gateway/abilities up.
Bob
Bringslite
Will players be able to both sub to earn over time AND buy more xp with Azoth?

That's the plan, though the idea is for earning XP over time to always be the most efficient/cheapest method, with the least limitations.
Bob
harneloot
Does the *individual characters can be subscribed to earn xp over time* mean you can add more training characters to the same account for less than the full $15/month each it now costs? So, maybe $15 for one toon then $5 for each additional one on the account that is training xp?

We haven't figured out all the pricing details yet, but yes, you'd pay some amount extra to have more characters on your account training.
Bob
Edam
1. What if you unlearn feats that were specifically learnt as prerequisites for other feats you also know? Do those other feats stop functioning.

So, the first thing to mention, because it would largely answer this and all your other questions, is that the easiest version of this for us to implement is to do a full respec, where everything gets forgotten all at once. That requires the least UI work, lets us ignore dependencies between the things that can potentially be forgotten, and lets us deal with other potential dependencies in bulk (we can take off all your equipment on the off-chance any of it had feat dependencies, that kind of thing).

The trickier version is to let you forget individual feats, in which case we'd need to do extra work to take into account any prerequisite conflicts. The simplest solution there is probably to say "you can't forget this feat until you forget this other feat (or feats) that depends on it." That's not at all trivial, because but could be done.

Edam
2. Also - does forgetting a feat reduce the relevant ability by the amount learning that feat added in the first place? If so what happens if the relevant ability drops below the gateway needed to qualify for some other feat you also know. Does that feat stop working? More importantly if the feat with a now too-low score stops functioning does it also stop functioning as a gateway for other feats you know that needed that now non-functioning feat as a gateway? Do those other feats also stop working? TL&DR version does the game track prerequisites or do feats just work forever once learnt.

The relevant abilities would drop, and the current code doesn't check prerequisites after a feat is learned. Here again we'd probably need to add code to say "You can't forget this feat unless you first forget this other feat." Needing that code to check multiple kinds of prerequisites is a large part of why that code isn't trivial.

Edam
3. Related to the above, does the game track ability scores above 30. If not will unlearning a feat related to that ability reduce the ability below 30 even if the character should really have been at say 35 or 40.

Ability scores are calculated on the fly and then reduced to a maximum of 30. As a result, this case is already handled just fine when I have my GM characters learn and unlearn feats.

Edam
4. Further … if instead, learnt feats DO continue to work even after any prerequisite gateways are unlearnt or prerequisite ability scores are lost, what is to stop people exploiting this by learning a heap of feats just to get the ability scores and prerequisite feats required to achieve a particular gateway, then learning the desired feat and immediately unlearning all the feats they just learnt to get the gateway/abilities up.

Agreed, we couldn't release this feature without first blocking that possibility.

The other big question has to do with achievements, where there's some question whether or not learning and unlearning feats in order to maximize your achievements is an exploit. In particular, crafting achievements can't be earned without knowing certain feats, so there's an argument to be made that you should forget those achievements when you forget those feats. On the other hand, it's also possible that earning and forgetting achievements could be its own exploit, since it can sometimes change the amount of influence earned for identical actions. Definitely a tricky topic.
Smitty
Since this is XP based thread –

Why not just provide ways to earn xp while playing the game?

Have asked before about kill quest- This seems like something players would expect from this type of game. Go out kill monsters get xp. It flows with what would normally encounter in table top.

Provides new players something to do if they spent the 1k they started with- the NPCs already do coin quest - should be able to tweak those easy enough to make them able to be requested by characters with certain ability scores.

NightmareSr
Bob
  • Individual characters can be subscribed to earn XP over time.

Thoughts/Concerns/Questions?

This one is very exciting, Thank you Bob. Certainly on the edge of my seat for more details here.
- All the other items are good too I guess smile
- Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord)
Edam
Bob
Edam
1. What if you unlearn feats that were specifically learnt as prerequisites for other feats you also know? Do those other feats stop functioning.

So, the first thing to mention, because it would largely answer this and all your other questions, is that the easiest version of this for us to implement is to do a full respec, where everything gets forgotten all at once. That requires the least UI work, lets us ignore dependencies between the things that can potentially be forgotten, and lets us deal with other potential dependencies in bulk (we can take off all your equipment on the off-chance any of it had feat dependencies, that kind of thing).

My bad, I assumed you were talking partial respecs.

A full respec where "where everything gets forgotten all at once" including all feats all achievements etc so the player gets a vanilla character identical to one that had been subbed at the same date of the current one but never played avoids most if not all the issues.

Though even then, I would consider EITHER looking at some sort of XP limit above which a respec is not possible - as after a certain amount of time playing that character the owner should know better OR make the cost in Azoth per 100,000 XP substantial enough to discourage random wanton character respeccing on a casual whim (or just as a way to ramp up influence).
 
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