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Flag for PvP

Harad Navar
I can agree that a player who gets flagged for PVP based on where they go (knowingly or not), then gets killed and robbed, might not feel that they have a say in the matter. My greatest concern is when a T3 player kills and robs a T1 player in this scenario. The T1 player might feel that they have no way to respond to the attack without dying many times. In a larger game population with factions, I can see a faction of lawful aligned players being a "justice league" that can be turned to for recompense. This "league" could do this outlaw hunting for altruistic reason rather than for a fee. This could incite normally non-PVP players to participate in PVP (as members of the league faction) because it has a "story" element to which TT players could relate.
Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Make unflagging a premium choice. Give every account (three? four?) tokens (non-transferable once assigned to a toon) that allow unflagging. Sell more in the store for $10 a pop.

Then as long as there are some penalties for being unflagged, if someone wants to support the game to the tune of $10.00 to avoid getting hit, more power to them.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Edam
BlackMoria
The 'Bandit' players really aren't here for a territorial warfare PvP game because, dah…Bandit. Doesn't go with what traditionally the bandit lifestyle is about. And yet, at its core, that is what PvP mechanics support - territorial warfare.
This is the crux of the problem.

I joined the game expecting a territorial warfare game similar to the huge EVE nulsec wars I was used to. That was how the game was promoted, territorial warfare on a big scale and there was all sorts of talk about limiting scrappy small gang and 1v1 PvP to faction warfare.

Instead we got some PvP players more inclined to the scrappy small gang skirmish and PvP roam playstyle of EVE losec/wormhole space and a separate much larger group of primarily PvE-ers more akin to the EVE high-sec population.

EVE manages to keep all three play-styles attractive by dividing the map into regions suited to particular play styles. You want to chill and just gather and trade create an alt in hisec. You like 1v1 and small gang battles get your mates together and go on a losec roam. You want big territorial control stuff join an active nulsec corp.

The original concept of THIS game was it would be like EVE nulsec, big groups fighting huge territorial battles. Our entire map was based on EVE nulsec.

Instead we have a few PvPers wanting small battles where they can "shine" and make a name for themselves (more akin to the EVE losec crew)and get the satisfaction of close fought one on one PvP combat and a huge batch of PvEers who at a pinch might fight to defend their settlement/alliance but otherwise could not care less about PvP (much as PvPers will gather and craft if they have to).

This game at its core has a serious identity crisis.
Bob
BlackMoria
So…what is this game about PvP-wise?

In large part, what we've been aiming for is a world where players interested in differing amounts/types of PvP would find what they were looking for in different parts of the map. Highly developed areas would be heavily policed, largely by players themselves, so their interiors would be relatively safe places to gather, adventure and craft. The borders between developed nations would be where large-scale battles would take place as each nation jockeyed for advantage. Untamed areas would be rich with resources, but those brave enough to venture there would also attract the attention of bandits taking advantage of the lack of security forces. Excessive banditry would be discouraged by the reputation system, nudging bandits to focus on only the most promising targets rather than just attacking everyone they come across.

We still intend for PvP to be important in all the ways mentioned above, and in many ways a decisive factor in how successful each player is in the game. Other game activities, like gathering, refining, crafting, trading and adventuring, are also essential to success, but ultimately they all pay off by determining who wins or loses the PvP side of the game, particularly when it comes to holding on to a settlement and maintaining high support levels, keeping PvP (and the avoidance of it through political and other means) central to success.

A big difference between PvP and all the other game activities is that players can't definitively choose to avoid PvP by letting other players do it for them. You can't do much without advanced items in this game, and those don't exist without gathering, refining and crafting, but you can have a full and meaningful experience in this game without ever gathering, refining or crafting yourself, and it's completely up to you whether or not you do any of those things. Those advanced items also can't exist without recipes, but you never have to fight a mob yourself, at least as long as you're paying attention to your mini-map. You get to decide whether or not to do any of those activities, mostly just by never doing the ones you don't want to do.

However, as you pointed out, the choice whether or not to PvP is ultimately in the hands of the attacker, not the defender. You can do a lot to minimize your PvP risk, and there's a good chance that will mean you never get attacked, but getting far requires leaving Thornkeep and joining a settlement. Either of those currently opens up the possibility of being attacked and takes the choice out of your hands. Our goal is to give you the same choice to PvP or not to PvP as you have to gather or not to gather, while still granting greater rewards for greater risks, and while still keeping PvP (done by others if you choose not to flag for PvP) a central part of each player's ultimate success. With the right limits and incentives, we should be able to reach that goal.
harneloot
Edam, who are these gangs of scrappy small-group skirmish PvPers? I only kill people who enter my territory (territorial control) and only those who are not allied with my Settlement.

Black Moria - who are these dangerous *Bandit players* that are only interested in killing people and taking their stuff? Not sure if Harad's PFO Atlas is up to date, but when he gets it so again, I think you will see who the most active group in *territorial control* is.

Bob - you have mentioned twice now how having to 1) Leave the Thornkeep area and 2) join a Settlement can opens people up to the possibility of unwanted PvP. Well, if the whole purpose of the game is Territorial Control, isn't joining a Settlement kinda mandatory??? PFO is not, nor was it EVER meant to be, a solo-able game - and neither is freakin Table Top Pathfinder! If you want people to feel safer longer, then expand the ring around TK of Ultimate Safety Hexes. Include a monster hex that goes through the normal random escalation rotations (like the one near UC), Place guards all along the Crusader Road, like there are near TK. Then, if you CHOOSE to leave this larger High Sec area, you know the risks. Have it delineated by the Blue Force Field (one you can pass through) effect so there is no question about when you leave High Sec. There is still plenty of gathering, crafting, monster killing etc to be done in the larger TK protected area. Joining a Settlement or Faction SHOULD open you up to PvP - otherwise, as Black Moria says - what kind of game is this?

PvP only happens in this game for three reasons as I ever see:

1) Stay out of MY hex! (territory control - easily avoided)

2) I want your hex (Holding Warfare/territorial control - easily avoided just don't show up to defend)

3) Fighting over escalations and who gets to kill the boss. (easily avoided - run away or stay out of monster hexes with T3 escalations running, which most new players will anyway)
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Bringslite
@Bob-please correct me if I'm in error.

The mission, as far as I can tell, is to develop and implement a state in which players can play and experience the whole game (except Territorial combat PVP) without ever having to be involved in any combat PVP vs. other players unless by 100% informed choice. Period.

I don't think that (so far) any of our suggestions are really fulfilling that mission.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Stilachio Thrax
Perhaps there needs to be a change to how Thornkeep (Riverwatch and Fort Inevitable as well) work. Keep player settlements for people who are open to PVP as it is now. If you want to be unflagged, you join Thornkeep as your settlement. Training and support at Thornkeep would have to be boosted to 20, but everything for a Thornkeep citizen would be heavily taxed (highest levels possible) and crafting/queue times would be based on the worst possible facilities. A Thornkeep citizen cannot use any player settlement trainers or crafting facilities to avoid those penalties. A Thornkeep citizen/company cannot place any holdings or outposts, nor gain influence. By opting out by being a citizen of Thornkeep, you cut yourself off from the territorial control game, and can't get any benefits from it as a result.
Virtus et Honor

Steward of Ozem's Vigil, Lord Commander of the Argyraspides Iomedais
Bringslite
@Xyzzy

You have a unique "persona" going on here, as things stand right now. You claim that swamp hex and you make it VERY clear that you will come after any intruder not on your "approved list". IMO, that is very interesting and really a neat bit of flavor for the game. You also do not seem to apply it to newbs and, in fact, you help them out as much as possible. Again, IMO, that is just the kind of aggressive PVP player that is needed.

Just as an example of a possible outcome of this "flag for PVP" thing, what if there were 3 possible "states" that "trespassers" fell into when they enter "The Swamp":

1. Passing through. If flagged for PVP, they are open for you to engage.
2. Entering and hunting/harvesting. They are (non-friendlies) auto-submissive to your claim and a portion of their take is auto-tithed to your vault.
3. Players could enter, hunt/gather, decide that they will not pay a "tithe" and be wide open to your "trespassing" interdictions.

You must realize that you won't be able to catch ALL players that cross your boundaries if the pop increases much and that you probably don't catch all, even now. You will GAIN tribute with such a system. In a way, a "tithing" system is a tributary nod to your control over that hex.

Yeah, you will lose a bit of control (in a way) but you will gain a different sort of control as well. Would that really be so bad?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bob
Bringslite
The mission, as far as I can tell, is to develop and implement a state in which players can play and experience the whole game (except Territorial combat PVP) without ever having to be involved in any combat PVP vs. other players unless by 100% informed choice. Period.

I was going to quibble with "experience the whole game," since that can sound like unflagged characters should be able to go anywhere and do anything (except for territorial control and anything directly involving PvP), but it's accurate when you consider that part of the MMO sandbox experience is being impacted by the actions of other players. Just as there's no guarantee that a specific raw material hasn't been completely depleted by other players, there doesn't need to be a guarantee that various actions (up to entering a particular hex) haven't been blocked by other players. What's important is that the unflagged character still has opportunities to perform relevantly similar actions on a regular basis. If you log in one day and discover you can't reasonably gather any T3 materials because all remotely nearby monster hexes have been "claimed" by PvP players, that's fine as long as you have other gathering options that day and reasonably believe on other days you'll be able to reach unclaimed monster hexes, even if that means moving your base of operations to the other side of the map. That's part of dealing with a dynamic, player-driven world, and thus part of experiencing the whole game.
Bringslite
Bob
BlackMoria
So…what is this game about PvP-wise?

In large part, what we've been aiming for is a world where players interested in differing amounts/types of PvP would find what they were looking for in different parts of the map. Highly developed areas would be heavily policed, largely by players themselves, so their interiors would be relatively safe places to gather, adventure and craft. The borders between developed nations would be where large-scale battles would take place as each nation jockeyed for advantage. Untamed areas would be rich with resources, but those brave enough to venture there would also attract the attention of bandits taking advantage of the lack of security forces. Excessive banditry would be discouraged by the reputation system, nudging bandits to focus on only the most promising targets rather than just attacking everyone they come across.

That is inspiring for PVP fans (this one anyway!). I am glad that is still the ultimate goal. I do hope that you realize after adding "flag for PVP" it will be doubly difficult to achieve this sort of atmosphere. It will likely develop that you will need to adjust PVP so that it is MUCH less expensive, MUCH more rewarding and Much more accessible.

Edit: Also you may have to lose any such assumptions that PVP will come to a state in which players will opt for using less than the very best gear and highest skills that they can. That is part of why (right now) PVP is too expensive and not rewarding (IMO). That assumption goes against human nature.

We have seen lots of future intentions for giving PVP a little love, but it has always been a back burner thing. I don't fault that really because without a real population, the work wouldn't improve things very much.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
 
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