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Flag for PvP

BlackMoria
Most people who have not done a steady diet of PvP will be risk averse for a number of reasons:

1. They will consider themselves bad at it. Why opt in for it if the experienced PvPers are just going to plow you and take your stuff? It takes dedication and a long time to make a great PvP build. For players who may only have one or two characters, they may not what to invest the XP and time to make a PvP character if the PvE is their principal activity. There is a reason a majority of people don't want to tangle with Xyzzy. Because he has build a real good PvP character and the majority of people find out they just lose repeatedly to him unless they invest heavily to make a competitive build. So, no one is going to opt for PvP if they feel they will be the victims to the dedicated PvPers all the time.

2. Incidents like the Forever War and the Blackwood Glade incident show the egos and personalities of the personalities can drive the PvP to a level of toxicity that drive people from the game. Sure, a lot of people left when the development of the game stalled due to the money running out but I also know quite a number of people left the game as fallout of the Forever War. There is nothing to stop a simple act of PvP spiraling into a bigger conflict dragging in companies or even settlements if everyone is willing to go for the nuclear option. Sorry, count me out. Being in a settlement with a minor role in the Forever War but suffering it full effects left me with a very bad taste in my mouth. Why the hell would I risk putting my company/settlement at risk if any potential conflict can go nuclear at the drop of a hat. That has to be addressed in whatever the solution is. Trouble is, if egos and personalities at at play, it is simply impossible to keep PvP going to a toxic level. And the long time players can all recount cases where PvP did go to a toxic level. So your problem becomes this - if someone opts in some interesting low intensity PvP, can you promise that person they will not get a "war" instead?

3. PvP is a chump's game, IMO. If you are a bandit where you can largely control the variables of PvP as to where and when it occurs, it is great game for the bandit. Not so for the victim. I didn't sign up for PFO to be a bandit. But recognize this - I also didn't sign up to be the victim. Which is why agency of being to opt in and opt out is important. No one is going to sign up for this game of they are going to be the designated victim whenever some PvP/bandit player feels like it. As to why PvP is a chump's game, IMO - here is… I fought in the forever war. Even spent 40 hours in one week alone defending my settlement and my settlement alliance mates. Forty hours in one week! And it didn't put even one frigging copper piece in my pocket. Forty hours I could have been gathering resources or doing escalations or nearly anything to further my character or my company and settlement. Because, most PvPers, expecting a fight, make sure they got nothing of value on them. I killed a few bandits in those day and … empty pocket ismy reward. So a bandit jumps me while gathering or running a mule and if he kills me, he makes bank. But if I kill him, my reward is nothing. So, a chump's game with me being the clump. Why would anyone sign up for that unless they were the bandit?

Level that playing field somehow and maybe there is an incentive for a PvP shy person to opt in. But as it stand right now, there is far greater reasons to avoid PvP. And the PvPers would not like my suggestions at all, which is why I am not offering any.

Sorry for the verbose post but I offered my view from the very cheap seats. I honestly tried at PvP in this game and I came into this game knowing it would be a game with PvP in it. But it was punishing enough in ways I outlined above that I avoid it now. Address that and we may be getting somewhere. Because I am not the only person who feels that way.
HunterOfStorms
+1
Azure_Zero
I do think I know the best answer for those that want to OPT out of PVP.

Since Holdings, Outposts and Settlements are part of the PVP system, it makes it simple.
Players and any Company not wanting any PVP CAN NOT be attached to any PC settlement as a player and or as a company since Settlements were designed to be sieged and fought over in PVP.

It makes it simple, in a PC settlement, your a PVP target.
BlackMoria
Yeah, that attitude is sure to draw in lots of players. Seriously, that is not helpful. If the PvP adverse are going to be cut out of large parts of the game, they simply will not play… period, which leaves us exactly where we are now - with no real player base.

What about the idea of expanding the map a bit in one direction and make it a non-PvP zone. The non-PvP zones have everything the rest of the map, including settlements and monster hexes. The real PvP adverse can do stuff there and can do all the activities we do, so they are not adversely affected by being shut out of too much content.

So what is the difference between Carebear Land and the rest of the map. In Carebear Land, the cost are increased in everything. Crafting queue times are significantly longer. T3 crafting is out of the question and T2 may be capped at a certain level, for example. Gathering is also limited in yield and T3 resources cannot ever be found in nodes and monster hexes… perhaps certain valuable T2 resources also cannot be gathered. No enchantment resources are found anywhere in Carebear Land. Structures and holdings can be built but costs are much higher for resources and influence. Training cost are higher and also limited. For T3 training, they have to leave the kids sandbox and maybe T2 is capped somewhere. Escalations in monster hexes in Carebear Land are limited to middle T2 or lower. High T2 and T3 is only possible outside Carebear Land.

Now, the non-PvPers have access to a fair amount of the games content. It is just more expensive for them and certain things and T3 stuff in particular is not available to them. At some point, when they are comfortable, they will leave the sandbox into the real world. I think this will be the case because the truly anti-PvP players are simply not going to enroll a sub if they are 100% against PvP is a game marketed as a game with PvP. So most PvP adverse players are at least open to PvP if they feel that they can do it somewhat on their terms. I feel most PvP adverse players will avoid it at first but will warm up to it once it is clear that a slaughter fest does not await them once they step into the real world and that they have learned the ropes of how to control their risks.

And have real perks to draw them in. Like a faction system with tangible benefits to be part of the faction. And I mean tangible benefits - not simply another lame ass benefit system to justify always being flagged for PvP by opposing factions. The carrots have to be real carrots, not kale posing as carrots. As I stated in my earlier post, PvP now is chump's game - there is absolutely no reward other than survival for me. I am not a bandit player. I have everything to lose and nothing to gain right now by engaging in PvP. So make it worth my time and I will be game for PvP and so will other players who are PvP adverse.

Here is my thoughts on making it worth my time. A "bandit player" wants to do some PvP. He now need to ante up coin and/or resources to the PvP "account". The amount is Tier dependent and can be crowd sourced. Now that PvP player can do PvP with the tier he has anted up for. He finds someone and wins - good for him. His ante remains and he can continue. Ah, but lets say he loses. The ante goes immediately to the character who defeated him, transferred via the game mechanic which controls all this. And the PvP fairy (the mechanic that controls all this but lets call it a PvP fairy for this discussion) pops up a dialogue box and ask the player who lost the PvP to re-ante some more coin/resources to the PvP account or he can't PvP anymore until he does so.

Feuds and Territory PvP would be exempt this. This is for the lone or small group gank gangs who want to attack anyone they meet. I like this as an idea because the "bandit" does have something to lose. He needs to ante up to do what he wants and his victim, if his victim wins the fight, get a pay day out of it rather than the disappointment of yet another bandit player with empty pockets resulting in a PvP fight that the victim finds completely meaningless. Getting some bandit's ante if I win is meaningful enough if the ante is significant. Us victims want a pay day too, you cheap bastards! smile

There - some ideas to forward the conversation because "It makes it simple, in a PC settlement, your a PVP target." is not going to bring in any new players, IMO.
Azure_Zero
Sorry, but since PC settlements are supposed to be targeted in Fueds and sieged, they are Part of the PVP system, no Buts.
If players and companies want out of PVP, they settle in NPC towns and take any other restrictions that come with NOT Opting into PVP.
In fact it pretty almost fits what you said

BlackMoria
So what is the difference between Carebear Land and the rest of the map. In Carebear Land, the cost are increased in everything. Crafting queue times are significantly longer. T3 crafting is out of the question and T2 may be capped at a certain level, for example. Gathering is also limited in yield and T3 resources cannot ever be found in nodes and monster hexes… perhaps certain valuable T2 resources also cannot be gathered. No enchantment resources are found anywhere in Carebear Land. Structures and holdings can be built but costs are much higher for resources and influence. Training cost are higher and also limited. For T3 training, they have to leave the kids sandbox and maybe T2 is capped somewhere. Escalations in monster hexes in Carebear Land are limited to middle T2 or lower. High T2 and T3 is only possible outside Carebear Land.

Oh We already have a Carebear land in game it's called; ThornKeep.

And increasing the Map size will only make the game feel more empty then it already is killing it faster.
BlackMoria
It is as you say right now. Yet the world is empty of people. Your position is advocating for the status quo except a smaller world. The status quo is not working out all that well or we would have maintained a server population. And a smaller world may retain the current player base … or fizz and we continue to bleed people. But a smaller world is NOT going to bring new players in, which is by and large what the point of this entire thread is.

Hold onto your entrenched ideas if you must but offer some ideas more useful than a freshly repainted status quo.

Because "Come join the River Kingdoms! Now 50% Smaller!" is not a sound marketing pitch to new players. It is suicide.

You did not comment on my suggestion on an 'ante' system for solo/small gang PvP. I will quote you from an earlier post: "Well sorry, but there NEEDS to be something that MAKES OPTING IN for PVP rewarding and something you WANT to risk, as there being NO PVP is what is Killing PFO."

Ok, let's start here: My position is PvP is a chump's game. There is no rewards for me if I don't choose to be a bandit or aggressor PvPer. Those characters don't carry anything on them. You kill me, and you get the stuff I gathered or the mule I was mule running. If I kill you I get zip…zero…nada. Therefore, PvP will not be rewarding for me. The cost to reward ratio outright sucks. I am still burned by 40 hours of unrelenting PvP in one week and I had absolutely nothing to show for it. That makes PvP NOT WORTH MY TIME. That is part of the problem. Don't ignore what said I said. Address these:

1. Single character players - must choose between focusing on a PvP character or a PvE character. Trying to do both does not help at all against players like Xzzy with dedicated focused PvP characters. They will lose everytime.

2. Skewed Cost to Reward Ratio which favors bandit players. Unless the Cost to Reward Ratio is addressed, PvP will remain something that some players will actively avoid because their game time is limited and they want that limited time to be REWARDING.

3. Toxic PvP. It isn't right now, but it has been in the past as any long time player can attest and it can become toxic again in the future. That right there will keep some players from trying it. Sign up for a small scrap, get a full out war potentially. Tried that, got the t-shirt. Not interested in going down that road again.
Bringslite
The whole PVP thing is like a morass of impossible contradictions. Unbalanced in rewards for many participants, completely "not fun" for the unwilling and leads to toxicity. Not just in this game but in most games out there. That is it's basic flaw.

Even though in this community, now and in the past, we have had some of the most chivalrous PVP players (including random hunter types) I have ever seen, it is still lacking in fun for those that have to play victims and those that choose to play aggressors. It also inevitably leads to toxic wars as mentioned above. The mass of MMORPG players want to avoid that whole scene.

@ Azure
IMO, we need to think in terms of carrots rather than sticks. There are way too many sticks in the game already. It is to the point that I will not play anymore. Not because of the PVP or lack of it but because I am bored with it at this point. Much more needs to be fixed than PVP and am waiting for that work which is underway now and probably more that is also needed.

The FULL (or as close as possible) ability to play all the game needs to be a basic premise in order to attract/keep players. Especially since the game is still lacking in so many complete and fun features.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Azure_Zero
@Bringslite
I think we have TOO many carrots and not enough sticks in this game, and that is what is making the game very boring.
Harad Navar
I will admit that (so far) I am not good at PvP. I can remember the early days when I tried, but that is not my best skill set. If PvP has no upside for the victim, then I think there needs to be more options for an upside for the victim rather than more carrots/sticks for the PvPer.
Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light.
Bringslite
Azure_Zero
The PVP system, needs more thought, especially for those that CHOOSE to opt out of PVP.

For OPTING out of PVP also optional at the company level, where the Company gives it's players PVP immunity (sans low sec hexes), BUT they in-turn CAN NOT control any Holdings as those are Part of the PVP system. The Company can still be feuded, but now there is less reason to do so.
This is a bit of a twist on High Sec hexes and not true. Actually those hexes are vulnerable to feuding just like any other holding hexes in the game. Nothing has been said about "Opting Out" of PVP protecting holdings from being vulnerable. Non flaggers will just not be able to defend their holdings.

OPTING out of PVP should also have the following restrictions; NO T3 crafting, refining, gathering, gear, and equipment.
As BlackMoria points out and I tried to, above and further back in this thread, doing that will defeat the entire reason for adding the Flag system at all. How would offering a game with dated graphics, incomplete systems-limited features, limited PVE(not even any dungeons), still many combat bugs, limited weapons, races, class types, a $15.00 sub cost and "Oh, you can only enjoy the first 2/3 the content, not the good stuff", be attractive?
This is being done to attract more players that will stay and play, not to find players that like to be punished and limited.


They are still vunerable to PVP in LOW security Zones so they can not gather without risk in any good monster hexes.
I would like to see something to off-set this. I think Bob first brought this up but has not mentioned again… Some kind of way to officially "claim" T3 hexes and set rules for either "owner permission to hunt/gather there or pay a "tithe" on the rewards for such. Suggestion: setting like Tithe = "0" or "every other" or "every 3rd" or "blah-blah"

They Never generate influence,
Never? I think they should when they play flagged for PVP. No single choice should cause a permanent penalty.

You as a Individual can ONLY change your PVP Flag once a Week toggled on Monday server UP, this is to STOP ANY gaming of the system and force a choice for the week.
I'm fine with this. Flagging should not be used like a light switch

More things that encourage players and less things that "punish" players or are just plain tedious and not fun please
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
 
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