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Flag for PvP

Fiesta
Harad Navar
harneloot
Lion Hexes are not short cuts to anywhere really, so there is no need to go *running through one* without being prepared to DO something in the hex (fight mobs, harvest resources, PvP) so there isn't really any reason why anyone entering a Lion hex shouldn't immediately be flagged for PvP.
I made a run through the game recently were I made a point of entering each and every game hex (except Fort Inevitable future hexes). I was collecting data for the Atlas, but someone could just be wanting to see what is there.

It occurs to me that a true bandit settlement would attack anyone, flagged or not, because they are bandits. Would true bandits care about reputation loss if it would not affect their use of their own settlement (or did I missed a game mechanic to the contrary)?

+1
Bringslite
@Bob

OK. Situation here. My name is Bart. I belong to company X which does PVP but I simply never "Flag Up". During holding/outpost conflict, can my character count towards "take over counter points" in the positive or negative (either way)? Can I, (not flagged) just stand in the way annoyingly with my 3 non-flagged brothers? Can I help loot a raided holding more swiftly if in the raiding company/party? Can I help unload stolen mules? Stuff like that etc…

Edit: As "Unflagged Bart" I certainly won't be able to attract the attention of hex guards will I?
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
Bob
Harad Navar
It occurs to me that a true bandit settlement would attack anyone, flagged or not, because they are bandits. Would true bandits care about reputation loss if it would not affect their use of their own settlement (or did I missed a game mechanic to the contrary)?

We have a variety of mechanics in mind to make life a little harder on settlements that support characters with low reputations, but our assumption was that there would usually be at least one such settlement on the map. Our larger assumption was that even those settlements would make some effort to police their members a bit. After all, neighboring powers may not be able to convince individual bandits to reform, but they can go after the settlement supporting those bandits.
Bob
Bringslite
I belong to company X which does PVP but I simply never "Flag Up". During holding/outpost conflict, can my character count towards "take over counter points" in the positive or negative (either way)?

You wouldn't count positively or negatively for PvP-based capture games (Raids, Takeovers), but you would count against NPC Invasions, since they're basically PvE. We're doing the exact same restriction on Free Trial Mode characters.

Bringslite
Can I, (not flagged) just stand in the way annoyingly with my 3 non-flagged brothers?

Ideally we'd want a mechanic to keep players from doing that, but at the very least it sounds like taking advantage of a mechanical shortcoming during development, and thus a ToS violation.

Bringslite
Can I help loot a raided holding more swiftly if in the raiding company/party?

This sounds like something we can more easily put a mechanical block on, and probably want to do so for husks in general. We could probably say that any husk you can only loot from slowly, because you don't fully own it, requires being flagged for PvP.

Bringslite
Can I help unload stolen mules? Stuff like that etc…

We can probably restrict non-PvP characters from claiming stolen mules relatively easily, but there'd likely be some loopholes, like having a PvP character claim the mule, then grab everything, then trade things off to non-PvP characters. Basically, it's hard to track those items once they're off the mule, so we might also need to look into further restrictions on mules in general. For example, we could put a timer on a stolen mule, during which they can't be unloaded at all unless reclaimed by the original owner.

Bringslite
As "Unflagged Bart" I certainly won't be able to attract the attention of hex guards will I?

As Unflagged Bart, we'd probably want to block you from attacking or being attacked by guards during PvP windows. I wouldn't be surprised if that would in turn cause some other weird issues, so this probably opens a can of worms that we'd need to sort through before tackling it.


Bringslite
Thks, Bob. Sounds like just adjusting the basics of "Flag for PVP" will be a pretty serious job even before considering extras like auto flagging for gathering in T3 hexes, or tithing or anything else being considered. Still looking forward to see how it all boils down!
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
harneloot
Can "unflagged Bart" follow me around, like a henchman, and heal and buff me whenever I decide to defend a holding, or attack a holding, or attack another player?

Having PLAYERS Flag & Unflag themselves does not seem to be an elegant solution to the problem of getting more players playing the game. If you want tons of Pathfinder TT players to play PFO, then maybe you should make a new/different game?

Only way to save (what I see as a poor idea) is to make the Hex decide when you are flagged or not, in whatever way you decide to do that. EVE Online handles it this way, and it works pretty well in my limited experience I have with the game. You should seriously consider this approach rather than the MESS that can potentially be created by putting it in the player's hands.

Seriously, besides the idiotic Forever War, when has there EVER IN THE WHOLE LIFE OF THE GAME been a problem with PvP? And, if it is an *image* problem (as you seemed to have indicated), then changing the game's raison d'etre seems to be a very poor/heavy handed way to go about fixing that.
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
plopmania
I am in favor of automatic PVP flagging by geographic location over manual flagging. Sure, make sure that the player understands that they are about to be flagged.

Travelling close to (and towards) a flagging hex? Display a popup informing they player that they are about to be flagged. Or draw a clear marker onto they ground/air that denotes a transition from pvp-free area. Red line, misty wall. Whatever. This can be a toggle on feature so that immersion driven players can just stumble into their deaths. When, the flag changes, show a visual cue and play a little jingle.

Allow skill interaction between players only if they have the same flag state. No abilities should work between players with different flag states.

Or, if we are going the manual flag route, apply a damage over time effect to players without a flag when they are in an area where they can have pvp-related effects. Such as capturing a some point or other.
Bringslite
Ultimately it appears that you (Paizo) have determined attracting the non PVP crowd will get you more momentum than attracting the PVP crowd. It is a serious departure from the original design and that may or may not pay off. I can see that partially, the idea is the encouragement of the ideal type of PVP that you want in your game and the elimination of the type you don't really want.

I am very interested to see what the results will be as I really want the game to succeed. AND I am conflicted because I look forward to more bodies running around making the game feel "ALIVE". That gambit is already going to be improved with free trials and xp models, etc… So the "Flag for PVP", as presented may not be needed as well, or might.

Greatest concern is that not going "all in" I.E., allowing mule stealing, will make it all for naught. It will sour anti PVP players too much. Your net gain will be crippled.

There have been many agreeing comments about letting hexes adjust PVP settings AND communicating that WELL and Obviously. So if not going "all-in", I find myself agreeing as long as things like auto-tithing and T3 hex control mechanics are out of reach. IMO, this will be of the same weight (in the minds of anti PVPers) as allowing mules to be stolen so no loss there in effectiveness and it is more simple.

That would require much work on improving the attractiveness of PVP as well, though. That is if you want to balance your overall player pop gain.

Edit: For most, I believe the issue is such a huge change. I don't think its impossible to make a sandbox without PVP or that it is an issue. I believe the issue is that you ALREADY made a sandbox with PVP. You made that choice in the back-when. Now it is getting spun (feels like) 180 deg.
Virtute et Armis
-Unknown
BlackMoria
No PvP mechanic is possible that will make EVERYONE happy. When this game of musical chairs is done, there is going to be people without a chair to sit down on.

The 'Bandit' players really aren't here for a territorial warfare PvP game because, dah…Bandit. Doesn't go with what traditionally the bandit lifestyle is about. And yet, at its core, that is what PvP mechanics support - territorial warfare.

So, PFO has an identify crisis on it hand in regards to PvP. Is this supposed to be a 'Game of Thrones' style game or a 'Welcome to the Bandit Kingdoms. Hold tight to your purse" style game? Can it be both? If both, will the mechanics be robust enough to make the territorial warfare and the bandit PvP folks happy?

I think the start of the discussion should be here first, rather than discussing the 'how to' before the 'why' is nailed down. So…what is this game about PvP-wise?

Now the other part of the equation - player agency. For PvE, the player knows the risks and accepts the risks if he chooses to plow into a mob. There is a risk to reward decision being made in the player's head. It is completely voluntary.

Now, being attacked by a player bandit takes away the player agency for one side - the person being attacked. The bandit player has made a risk to reward calculation in this decision to attack another player. The other player does not have a choice, it is forced on him. And most players don't like the content they don't like rammed up their butthole in this way. This is why people don't like this type of PvP forced on them and why people leave the game or will never sign up for the game in the first place. Which is a PROBLEM. The population needs to grow because I, for one, having been here since the beginning is tired of seeing a empty world and moving around and not seeing anyone. The perception of an EMPTY world will also turn people away, which is why we are in this type of limbo.

I have some ideas for another post on what could possibly work, but I would like to see some discussion of WHAT IS THIS GAME ABOUT. Because, if I were a betting man, I don't think even the PvP people will even agree on what PvP in this game is about. And that, is a problem…
Bob
harneloot
Can "unflagged Bart" follow me around, like a henchman, and heal and buff me whenever I decide to defend a holding, or attack a holding, or attack another player?

Just as we currently use rep hits when uninvolved characters do that kind of thing during a PvP window, we'd definitely like to discourage/prevent such behavior by unflagged characters. We'd rather not completely block them from interacting that way with their flagged friends when not engaged in PvP, but we can probably put some limits on it, like not allowing unflagged characters to heal/buff flagged characters in the presence of an unfriendly flagged character, or when damaged recently by a player character.

harneloot
Seriously, besides the idiotic Forever War, when has there EVER IN THE WHOLE LIFE OF THE GAME been a problem with PvP? And, if it is an *image* problem (as you seemed to have indicated), then changing the game's raison d'etre seems to be a very poor/heavy handed way to go about fixing that.

For the players who are open to an occasional PvP encounter, we've largely met our goal of making it possible for those least interested in it to minimize their risks. We're also pretty successful at reassuring players that they can largely avoid PvP, to the point that they likely won't engage in any at all. However, it's not just an image problem when it comes to those who simply won't play the game if they can't do so meaningfully without completely avoiding any risk of PvP. There's too little of the game available without going to monster hexes or joining a settlement, each of which opens you to at least some PvP risk, no matter how small. If we can integrate them into the game, with enough restrictions to protect the PvP side of the game, that's a win.
 
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