Alchemists

Bob 09.18.2019 13:12
	Alchemists specialize in creating and using alchemical bombs and elixirs in combat. Based heavily on the Alchemist class from Pathfinder Second Edition, with some additional inspiration from First Edition, they include all-new feats, weapons, ammunition, attacks, achievements, recipes, and other supporting content. To kick off some crowdforging discussions on the design and implementation of Alchemists, here are our high-level plans for this new role: Feature Feats Bomber: You specialize in explosions and other violent alchemical reactions. Chirurgeon: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy. Mutagenist: You focus on bizarre mutagenic transformations that sacrifice one aspect of a creature’s physical or psychological being in order to strengthen another. Items Formula Book (Implement) Formulas (Expendables) Alchemist's Tools (Weapon) Reagents (Ammo) Bandoliers (Ammo Containers) Those are the central building blocks for Alchemists, around which a wide variety of feats, achievements, and other content will be created. There will also be some links back to existing content, like the Expert role and the Alchemist crafting skill. I'll post deeper dives into each aspect as we work through the implementation. Initial thoughts? Quote

Bob 09.18.2019 13:12

Alchemists specialize in creating and using alchemical bombs and elixirs in combat. Based heavily on the Alchemist class from Pathfinder Second Edition, with some additional inspiration from First Edition, they include all-new feats, weapons, ammunition, attacks, achievements, recipes, and other supporting content.

To kick off some crowdforging discussions on the design and implementation of Alchemists, here are our high-level plans for this new role:

Feature Feats

Bomber: You specialize in explosions and other violent alchemical reactions.
Chirurgeon: You concentrate on healing others with alchemy.
Mutagenist: You focus on bizarre mutagenic transformations that sacrifice one aspect of a creature’s physical or psychological being in order to strengthen another.

Items

Formula Book (Implement)
Formulas (Expendables)
Alchemist's Tools (Weapon)
Reagents (Ammo)
Bandoliers (Ammo Containers)

Those are the central building blocks for Alchemists, around which a wide variety of feats, achievements, and other content will be created. There will also be some links back to existing content, like the Expert role and the Alchemist crafting skill. I'll post deeper dives into each aspect as we work through the implementation.

Initial thoughts?

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Bringslite 09.18.2019 14:24
	"Initial thoughts?" Like the idea in a broad sense as presented. Sounds exciting and… additive in a good way to available role paths. Virtute et Armis -Unknown Quote

Harad Navar 09.18.2019 17:20
	Would there be a necessity for new artwork to cover mutagenic transformations affecting the character? Knowledge can explain the darkness, but it is not a light. Quote

Bob 09.18.2019 17:42
	Harad Navar Would there be a necessity for new artwork to cover mutagenic transformations affecting the character? We'll need to make do with a more metaphorical transformation until we can devote more art resources to making these and other effects visible in-game. For now, these will operate much like other buffs, though with more significant drawbacks so that on balance the benefits can be even greater. Quote

Bob 09.18.2019 17:42

Harad Navar
Would there be a necessity for new artwork to cover mutagenic transformations affecting the character?

We'll need to make do with a more metaphorical transformation until we can devote more art resources to making these and other effects visible in-game. For now, these will operate much like other buffs, though with more significant drawbacks so that on balance the benefits can be even greater.

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Edam 09.18.2019 18:16
	Overall this is a great thing I look forward to trying out. My initial impression is very positive. Initial thoughts: It needs to be possible to readily integrate the various abilities like bandoliers into existing characters (presumably after suitable training and XP spent) the same way we currently integrate clerics with rogues etc. Whilst re-specing existing characters to be specialist dedicated alchemists may sound exciting and people will do it, in reality it will mainly be used to create alchemist/clerics, alchemist/rogues, alchemist/wizard/fighter/gish and so forth. There is an unfortunate tendency in this game for anything interesting, unusual and effective to draw the ire of people taking a more conservative view and eventually cop a substantial nerf. (A case in point was Devourers Caress, If Devourers Caress had been on a shield feat to enhance the already good tanking of cleric/fighters no-one would have complained. Instead it got nerfed into the point of being totally useless). HENCE - It is critical that this new role is not released in a form that later needs a substantial nerf after people have already spent XP/Money/Time on the character. You lose players that way (just look at how many people immediately quit as a direct result of the unnecessary longbow/greatsword nerfing). Note that offering respecs is not an appropriate solution to a tendency to be overly heavy handed with the nerf bat. If you attach all these new features to gathered mats and salvage items that take a dedicated party of six running escalations every night a month to collect the time spent developing the role will be wasted. Given the current state of the game, people playing solo or in sparsely populated settlements need to be able to advance at a reasonable rate in this new role without selling their soul to some major group or other to get unobtainable essential components. Quote

Edam 09.18.2019 18:16

Overall this is a great thing I look forward to trying out. My initial impression is very positive.

Initial thoughts:

It needs to be possible to readily integrate the various abilities like bandoliers into existing characters (presumably after suitable training and XP spent) the same way we currently integrate clerics with rogues etc.
There is an unfortunate tendency in this game for anything interesting, unusual and effective to draw the ire of people taking a more conservative view and eventually cop a substantial nerf. (A case in point was Devourers Caress, If Devourers Caress had been on a shield feat to enhance the already good tanking of cleric/fighters no-one would have complained. Instead it got nerfed into the point of being totally useless).
If you attach all these new features to gathered mats and salvage items that take a dedicated party of six running escalations every night a month to collect the time spent developing the role will be wasted. Given the current state of the game, people playing solo or in sparsely populated settlements need to be able to advance at a reasonable rate in this new role without selling their soul to some major group or other to get unobtainable essential components.

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Bob 09.19.2019 09:27
	Edam It needs to be possible to readily integrate the various abilities like bandoliers into existing characters (presumably after suitable training and XP spent) the same way we currently integrate clerics with rogues etc. That's definitely the plan. The mix of "feats reserved for those advancing as Alchemists" and "feats that are probably more useful for Alchemists but not reserved for them" should be pretty similar to the mix created for other roles. For example, you can't advance in Formula Book Implement Proficiency without advancing as an Alchemist, just as you can't advance in Holy Symbol Implement Proficiency without advancing as a Cleric. However, Alchemical Weapon Proficiency doesn't require Alchemist, just as Focus Weapon Proficiency doesn't require Cleric. It's certainly easier to advance in them while advancing in those roles, and there are more possibilities for acquiring other feats with matching bonuses, but it shouldn't be significantly more difficult to add some Alchemist abilities to a Fighter than it currently would be to add some Cleric abilities. Edam It is critical that this new role is not released in a form that later needs a substantial nerf after people have already spent XP/Money/Time on the character. We'll do our best, and that's a large part of why I'll be opening each of the details up for crowdforging as we go. Getting started now means I can post a steady stream of details without suddenly dropping an overwhelming batch of numbers on everyone. Edam If you attach all these new features to gathered mats and salvage items that take a dedicated party of six running escalations every night a month to collect the time spent developing the role will be wasted. My plan is for the standard Alchemist recipes to use existing standard refined items, or at the very least for any new refining recipes to use existing standard stocks. The overall difficulty of gathering/refining/crafting Alchemist items should similar to doing so for other roles. Quote

Bob 09.19.2019 09:27

Edam
It needs to be possible to readily integrate the various abilities like bandoliers into existing characters (presumably after suitable training and XP spent) the same way we currently integrate clerics with rogues etc.

That's definitely the plan. The mix of "feats reserved for those advancing as Alchemists" and "feats that are probably more useful for Alchemists but not reserved for them" should be pretty similar to the mix created for other roles. For example, you can't advance in Formula Book Implement Proficiency without advancing as an Alchemist, just as you can't advance in Holy Symbol Implement Proficiency without advancing as a Cleric. However, Alchemical Weapon Proficiency doesn't require Alchemist, just as Focus Weapon Proficiency doesn't require Cleric. It's certainly easier to advance in them while advancing in those roles, and there are more possibilities for acquiring other feats with matching bonuses, but it shouldn't be significantly more difficult to add some Alchemist abilities to a Fighter than it currently would be to add some Cleric abilities.

Edam
It is critical that this new role is not released in a form that later needs a substantial nerf after people have already spent XP/Money/Time on the character.

We'll do our best, and that's a large part of why I'll be opening each of the details up for crowdforging as we go. Getting started now means I can post a steady stream of details without suddenly dropping an overwhelming batch of numbers on everyone.

Edam
If you attach all these new features to gathered mats and salvage items that take a dedicated party of six running escalations every night a month to collect the time spent developing the role will be wasted.

My plan is for the standard Alchemist recipes to use existing standard refined items, or at the very least for any new refining recipes to use existing standard stocks. The overall difficulty of gathering/refining/crafting Alchemist items should similar to doing so for other roles.

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NightmareSr 09.19.2019 09:47
	This sounds very exciting, especially the Mutagens being big buffs (or boons) in one aspect but with trade-offs in other aspects. Also the bandoliers sounds very interesting also since I get annoyed by only being able to carry 9 potions and such currently. - Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord) Quote

Bob 09.19.2019 10:39
	NightmareSr Also the bandoliers sounds very interesting also since I get annoyed by only being able to carry 9 potions and such currently. The bandoliers won't really solve the 9 potion issue, since you don't load them up with potions. Instead, they're similar to quivers or charge gems, except bandoliers get loaded with reagents instead of with arrows or charges. That said, the attack feats that make use of reagents will often be similar to the effects of potions, so in a sense the bandoliers will enable you to feel somewhat like you're using potions more often. However, the attack feats will be balanced more like other attack feats, so they generally won't be as powerful. We do have some thoughts on making it easier to carry and use potions, and hope to do some work on it soon, but don't have that scheduled at the moment. Quote

Bob 09.19.2019 10:39

NightmareSr
Also the bandoliers sounds very interesting also since I get annoyed by only being able to carry 9 potions and such currently.

The bandoliers won't really solve the 9 potion issue, since you don't load them up with potions. Instead, they're similar to quivers or charge gems, except bandoliers get loaded with reagents instead of with arrows or charges. That said, the attack feats that make use of reagents will often be similar to the effects of potions, so in a sense the bandoliers will enable you to feel somewhat like you're using potions more often. However, the attack feats will be balanced more like other attack feats, so they generally won't be as powerful.

We do have some thoughts on making it easier to carry and use potions, and hope to do some work on it soon, but don't have that scheduled at the moment.

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NightmareSr 09.19.2019 16:27
	Bob NightmareSr Also the bandoliers sounds very interesting also since I get annoyed by only being able to carry 9 potions and such currently. The bandoliers won't really solve the 9 potion issue, since you don't load them up with potions. Instead, they're similar to quivers or charge gems, except bandoliers get loaded with reagents instead of with arrows or charges. That said, the attack feats that make use of reagents will often be similar to the effects of potions, so in a sense the bandoliers will enable you to feel somewhat like you're using potions more often. However, the attack feats will be balanced more like other attack feats, so they generally won't be as powerful. We do have some thoughts on making it easier to carry and use potions, and hope to do some work on it soon, but don't have that scheduled at the moment. Yeah sort of what I was thinking, and when I get frustrated by the limit of 9 is when I am using potions for utility like speed potions for crossing the map and etc. It will certainly be interesting to have a whole new weapon type and style. - Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord) Quote

NightmareSr 09.19.2019 16:27

Bob
NightmareSr
Also the bandoliers sounds very interesting also since I get annoyed by only being able to carry 9 potions and such currently.

The bandoliers won't really solve the 9 potion issue, since you don't load them up with potions. Instead, they're similar to quivers or charge gems, except bandoliers get loaded with reagents instead of with arrows or charges. That said, the attack feats that make use of reagents will often be similar to the effects of potions, so in a sense the bandoliers will enable you to feel somewhat like you're using potions more often. However, the attack feats will be balanced more like other attack feats, so they generally won't be as powerful.

We do have some thoughts on making it easier to carry and use potions, and hope to do some work on it soon, but don't have that scheduled at the moment.

Yeah sort of what I was thinking, and when I get frustrated by the limit of 9 is when I am using potions for utility like speed potions for crossing the map and etc.
It will certainly be interesting to have a whole new weapon type and style. smile

- Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord)

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You are a Troll 09.19.2019 16:49
	If you need more than 9 potions to cross the whole map you are making the wrong damn potions! Quote

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