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Alchemists

Bob
Schedim
Hey, here is an idea! Have the Alchemist use Tokens in some capacity, distilling them or transforming them or something, making Tokens a part of the economy instead of an annoying loot padding.

I agree that tokens need some work, and it's on the list of issues to tackle. However, I think that's best handled as its own issue, not something tightly connected to one particular combat role.
Schedim
Bob
We're not ready to implement guns or grenade launchers or anything like that, so we're starting with the core alchemist skill of throwing stuff accurately without it blowing up in their hands.

Hehe, no I didn't expect that, that was mostly nostalgic musings.

Bob
However, don't think of bombs as just being restricted to explosive/fire damage. The initial bombs I've been working on are based on the Alchemical Bombs listed in Second Edition (Acid Flask, Alchemist's Fire, Bottled Lightning, Frost Vial, Tanglefoot Bag and Thunderstone), and then I've expanded on them a bit based on various Alchemist feats and discoveries. Basically, a bomb can have any combat effect that the game currently supports, though you're very right that it's important to keep the attacks from feeling too much like Wizards. That's mostly just a matter of combining the existing effects in new ways that feel more alchemical than magical.
Sounds nice as a starter and I'm looking forward to what you can cook up!smile
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
Schedim
Bob
I agree that tokens need some work, and it's on the list of issues to tackle. However, I think that's best handled as its own issue, not something tightly connected to one particular combat role.

I most humbly disagree, I think it is a golden opportunity to create a asked for feature (remove the surplus Tokens) in a world congruent way (turning one thing into another using a recipe), thematically suitable role (Alchemists cook weird things) and also gives the provides the role with one unique thing.
As a DM I always have had the opinion that the Alchemists are an excellent dumping ground for weird shit players want;
-"you want a character with blackpowder weapons?" … well have the Alchemist
-"you want to play with mutations?" … have the Alchemist
-"you want to stich things toghter like Frankenstan but don't want to be a Necromancer" … well you have this class, the Alchemist it is called ..
If it is odd, smells and goeas boooom, make it a Alchemist feature.

Then what Tokens should distill into, well … doesn't matter really as long as it is something economically viable. I think refining to crystals, perhaps, as charges always will be in high demand. Potions with various effects would be fun, but I think it is to much bother for not enough bang.
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
Edam
I am not sure limiting the token processing to characters with the alchemist combat role actually makes sense unless it is something they do "on the fly" whilst in combat.

Making it a feature of the existing alchemist crafting role seems much more logical.

Also out of curiosity, what is planned for armor feats ? Some thoughts:

  1. rather than creating entirely new armors or just using existing armor already in game for the feats, how about giving the alchemist craft role recipes that "transform" select existing armor items into an alchemist version that better matches alchemist armor feats. This could use the same game mechanics as invoked when enchanting armor, except its done by an alchemist not a spellcrafter. NOTE this would transform the armor to a new type with new name, new keywords and base effects, not just add a feature like resistance the way spellcraft does.
  2. alchemists in tabletop do not suffer spell failure in heavier armors so I assume the same will apply here
  3. regardless of spell failure, making specialist alchemist armors light or cloth would seem to fit the theme
  4. whilst specialist armor that enhances alchemist attacks or improves saves and resistances fits the role well, consider some unusual or funky armor feats that nothing else has as well
  5. random example of "unusual" armor feats might be armor that recovers power or heals on a critical hit or adds extra effect power to alchemical potions and expendables
Schedim
Edam
I am not sure limiting the token processing to characters with the alchemist combat role actually makes sense unless it is something they do "on the fly" whilst in combat.
mmm … yeah, you may have a point there, I had forgotten that how design choice worked. I was back in the tabletop structure again.

Edam
Making it a feature of the existing alchemist crafting role seems much more logical.

Also out of curiosity, what is planned for armor feats ? Some thoughts:

  1. rather than creating entirely new armors or just using existing armor already in game for the feats, how about giving the alchemist craft role recipes that "transform" select existing armor items into an alchemist version that better matches alchemist armor feats. This could use the same game mechanics as invoked when enchanting armor, except its done by an alchemist not a spellcrafter. NOTE this would transform the armor to a new type with new name, new keywords and base effects, not just add a feature like resistance the way spellcraft does.
  2. alchemists in tabletop do not suffer spell failure in heavier armors so I assume the same will apply here
  3. regardless of spell failure, making specialist alchemist armors light or cloth would seem to fit the theme
  4. whilst specialist armor that enhances alchemist attacks or improves saves and resistances fits the role well, consider some unusual or funky armor feats that nothing else has as well
  5. random example of "unusual" armor feats might be armor that recovers power or heals on a critical hit or adds extra effect power to alchemical potions and expendables
Hear, hrear! Good ideas all over the place!
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
Bob
Edam
Also out of curiosity, what is planned for armor feats ? Some thoughts:

Those are in fact what I'm planning on posting next. Hope to have something ready to post today or tomorrow.

Edam
  1. rather than creating entirely new armors or just using existing armor already in game for the feats, how about giving the alchemist craft role recipes that "transform" select existing armor items into an alchemist version that better matches alchemist armor feats. This could use the same game mechanics as invoked when enchanting armor, except its done by an alchemist not a spellcrafter. NOTE this would transform the armor to a new type with new name, new keywords and base effects, not just add a feature like resistance the way spellcraft does.

I'd been looking at just using existing armors and think that could work out okay, but this is an intriguing idea that fits well with alchemist. I'd still have to use existing art, but maybe I could look at some minor changes, like making the altered armor shinier or colored slightly differently. That could go well with the idea that the armor had just been alchemically altered. I can largely implement this with the existing tech by just having standard recipes that use specific suits of armor as ingredients. That's less flexible than the enchant groups system, and also wouldn't enforce the "can't craft to a higher upgrade than the starting armor," but is easy and probably works better if the resulting armor gets its own unique name. Alternatively, I could just make some enchanting recipes for alchemists, but that would mean they couldn't be further enchanted and took up enchantment points. Or it might be worth a little code work to make something that's more of a cross between crafting and enchanting. I'll give this a little more thought, see what's possible.

Edam
  • alchemists in tabletop do not suffer spell failure in heavier armors so I assume the same will apply here
  • regardless of spell failure, making specialist alchemist armors light or cloth would seem to fit the theme

Alchemical attacks/expendables won't be labeled Arcane, so there won't be any inherent spell failure. On the other hand, that means they won't get the boost that spells do for requiring lighter armor

Edam
  • whilst specialist armor that enhances alchemist attacks or improves saves and resistances fits the role well, consider some unusual or funky armor feats that nothing else has as well
  • random example of "unusual" armor feats might be armor that recovers power or heals on a critical hit or adds extra effect power to alchemical potions and expendables

I'm trying to get as much mileage as I can out of existing bonuses that either haven't been used on another armor feat before, or at least not in certain combinations. Same goes for the attack effects and so forth. However, if there are cases where some new effects/bonuses would really make alchemists feel special, and where the code for making them happen is relatively easy, then we'll try to fit some of those in.

For armor feats in particular, they currently only support simpler bonuses like "precise" or "burning recovery bonus", not conditional ones like "on critical hit" or "with greatsword." Again, that's something we could potentially change in code, and could be pretty cool for a variety of armor feats, but would be best avoided unless the armor feats just don't feel right without it in comparison to the armor feats for other combat roles.
Bob
Next up, armor feats. Here's what I've been thinking so far:

For keywords, alchemists would focus on Light and Clothing armor. This first batch of keywords I'm proposing is based on sticking with just the existing suits of armor, but could be altered pretty easily if the thought of "alchemically enhanced" armor works out.

  • Chymist: Clothing, Inscribed, Intricate, Masterwork, Reinforced, Eldritch, Organic, Dragonskin
  • Concocter: Light, Agile, Reinforced, Masterwork, Stealthy, Shadowskin, Intricate, Truesilver
  • Fermenter: Clothing, Intricate, Agile, Masterwork, Reinforced, Sage, Infused, Dragonskin
  • Metaphysicist: Light, Agile, Reinforced, Masterwork, Intricate, Sage, Attuned, Clothing
  • Sapper: Light, Military, Flexible, Masterwork, Supple, Truesilver, Quiet, Medium
  • Scientist: Clothing, Intricate, Agile, Masterwork, Reinforced, Sage, Organic, Eldritch
  • Seeker: Light, Agile, Stealthy, Masterwork, Reinforced, Shadowskin, Intricate, Truesilver

For bonuses, here are the constant bonuses each feat would focus on. The more specific the bonus is, or the greater the number of bonuses, the lower the actual bonus amounts would be. In some cases, the limited amount of constant bonuses would be balanced by putting greater bonuses on the per-keyword list. Those have a lot more details, so I haven't fully worked through them yet, but would focus on the usual mix of hit points, defenses, recovery, knowledge and skills. I'll post more info on those once I've worked through some initial thoughts on them.

  • Chymist: Negative, Holy, Force and Psychic Resistance
  • Concocter: All Resistances, Base Attack Bonus, Regeneration
  • Fermenter: Acid Resistance
  • Metaphysicist: Energy Resistances
  • Sapper: Fire and Sonic Resistances, Ranged Attack Bonus
  • Scientist: Fire, Cold and Electrical Resistances
  • Seeker: Speed, Perception, Light Melee Attack

Advancement would be very similar to that for all the other armor feats, but focusing on Adventure or Crafting for Category Points and Intelligence for Ability Scores.
Edam
Bob
For bonuses, here are the constant bonuses each feat would focus on. The more specific the bonus is, or the greater the number of bonuses, the lower the actual bonus amounts would be. In some cases, the limited amount of constant bonuses would be balanced by putting greater bonuses on the per-keyword list. Those have a lot more details, so I haven't fully worked through them yet, but would focus on the usual mix of hit points, defenses, recovery, knowledge and skills. I'll post more info on those once I've worked through some initial thoughts on them.

  • Chymist: Negative, Holy, Force and Psychic Resistance
  • Concocter: All Resistances, Base Attack Bonus, Regeneration
  • Fermenter: Acid Resistance
  • Metaphysicist: Energy Resistances
  • Sapper: Fire and Sonic Resistances, Ranged Attack Bonus
  • Scientist: Fire, Cold and Electrical Resistances
  • Seeker: Speed, Perception, Light Melee Attack

Advancement would be very similar to that for all the other armor feats, but focusing on Adventure or Crafting for Category Points and Intelligence for Ability Scores.

Random thoughts …

  • It is hard to know how those will pan out without seeing the keyword bonuses.
  • The resistance theme on everything but seeker is interesting.
  • Only Concocter boosts Physical ? One thought, if Concotor is meant to be defensive, consider giving Concoctor similar keyword recovery bonuses and keyword save bonuses to the cleric healer armor.
  • Also, the perception offered on seeker is a fairly mediocre bonus (useless in PvE but might be a benefit to PvP) however I can see how it fits the role. Maybe give seeker a small physical bonus ?
Schedim
Agree on the notes on the Seeker, perception is one of those sad of-no-use skills, perhaps this is balanced by non-resistance/combat skill bonuses?

On a tangent, couldn't Perception be a defensive bonus versus things like Flat-footed/surprised/something-similar conditions? That would be a starter to get that skill back in the game.
Schedim: Peddler and dealer in stuff easily transported, restless wandering the land of the River. Trying to find out how to reawaken the cult of Hanspur. To realise this ambition I created the company named Rats of Hanspur.
You can reach me on: pfo.schedim@gmail.com
malmuerta
Schedim
Agree on the notes on the Seeker, perception is one of those sad of-no-use skills, perhaps this is balanced by non-resistance/combat skill bonuses?

On a tangent, couldn't Perception be a defensive bonus versus things like Flat-footed/surprised/something-similar conditions? That would be a starter to get that skill back in the game.
+1
 
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