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*Ahem* About those Alchemists...

Bob
NightmareSr
Bob
First off, we've decided that the Alchemist will get a new Medium structure for teaching attacks with the Alchemist's Tools, a new Medium Structure for teaching all the non-attack Combat Alchemist feats, and a new Large structure that teaches all the Combat Alchemist feats (so combining what the two Medium structures do) along with support for some other roles. I'm currently leaning toward covering Expert and Crafting Alchemist there, but not as locked down on that.
The expert seems like a logical addition but why not add the freeholder also, like the guildhouse? It really feels like the expert and freeholder should go together since they are very similar and both needed by most crafting focused characters. Also it would make the new large feel more similar to the current guild structure with combat alchemist in place of rogue/skirmisher and not like a less valuable version of the current guildhouse.

The main reason is to try to limit each large structure to the equivalent of 3 roles or less. A slightly more complicated comparison would be to count up the number of medium structures that a large structure can replace, and I believe the Guild House is currently the outlier on that with 4 trainers (Thieves Guild, Skirmisher, Expert, Freeholder). Alchemist and Expert alone would give the new large structure 3 trainers (Alchemist Attacks, Alchemist General, Expert). Crafting Alchemist would add the equivalent of 1/2 medium, so there's not a lot of wiggle room left.
NightmareSr
Bob
The main reason is to try to limit each large structure to the equivalent of 3 roles or less. A slightly more complicated comparison would be to count up the number of medium structures that a large structure can replace, and I believe the Guild House is currently the outlier on that with 4 trainers (Thieves Guild, Skirmisher, Expert, Freeholder). Alchemist and Expert alone would give the new large structure 3 trainers (Alchemist Attacks, Alchemist General, Expert). Crafting Alchemist would add the equivalent of 1/2 medium, so there's not a lot of wiggle room left.
Well, I thought the Guild House was more in line with the future of the other large buildings. As in where you mentioned other roles being added to the current large buildings.
Also I was thinking that the expert and freeholder made more sense than adding the crafting Alchemist to the new large building. That way it would align with replacing 4 mediums instead of 3 mediums and 1 small. Although if adding the crafting Alchemist then what about adding the Apothecary, since the Apothecary items are needed for any Alchemist crafting anyway? Or where you thinking to add the crafting Alchemist trainer yet not making it a crafting facility also? Just seemed to me that the new large structure has no future roles to be added and that explains the current Guild House but this new structure was possibly getting short-changed.
- Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord)
– Cauchemar is a Greater Nightmare –
Bob
NightmareSr
Well, I thought the Guild House was more in line with the future of the other large buildings. As in where you mentioned other roles being added to the current large buildings.
Also I was thinking that the expert and freeholder made more sense than adding the crafting Alchemist to the new large building. That way it would align with replacing 4 mediums instead of 3 mediums and 1 small. Although if adding the crafting Alchemist then what about adding the Apothecary, since the Apothecary items are needed for any Alchemist crafting anyway? Or where you thinking to add the crafting Alchemist trainer yet not making it a crafting facility also? Just seemed to me that the new large structure has no future roles to be added and that explains the current Guild House but this new structure was possibly getting short-changed.

Correct, the Guild House is more in line with the long-term plans, so I'm treating it as a rough upper limit. And Freeholder certainly makes sense with Expert, but it's also already available at a large alongside Expert, so it'd be nice to mix things up a bit.

Apothecary could make sense alongside Alchemist, though that would make Freeholder seem even more like it's missing, since refining is associated with Freeholders. Still, that would bring it to two smalls (I do plan on including crafting, so it covers everything the small does), which is basically equivalent to a medium, getting us back up to 4 mediums for the new structure before talking about adding Freeholder. Librarian would do the same, but might not be as obvious a fit.
NightmareSr
Bob
Correct, the Guild House is more in line with the long-term plans, so I'm treating it as a rough upper limit. And Freeholder certainly makes sense with Expert, but it's also already available at a large alongside Expert, so it'd be nice to mix things up a bit.

Apothecary could make sense alongside Alchemist, though that would make Freeholder seem even more like it's missing, since refining is associated with Freeholders. Still, that would bring it to two smalls (I do plan on including crafting, so it covers everything the small does), which is basically equivalent to a medium, getting us back up to 4 mediums for the new structure before talking about adding Freeholder. Librarian would do the same, but might not be as obvious a fit.
So the new Large would be treated like that same "upper limit" for offerings, like the Guild House feels?
My thought was many crafting heavy Settlements are using/will use the Guild House cause having all refining and crafting the Guild House gives them the Freeholder and Expert with the Rogue, but if the same wanted to be different and use the combat alchemist they would still need the Freeholder medium to cover their needs. I was just trying to balance it to the benefits a settlement would get from each large.
Although I suppose if the crafting Alchemist is included then the medium Lab could be half covered making the Engineer's Institute more practical and allow the Freeholder to be built instead. Although that makes the inclusion of the Apothecary more viable in my opinion since it would free up a small spot to cover the Institute?
Hopefully this makes sense as I rambled a stream of consciousness. smile
Symmetry for settlement structures is nice.
- Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord)
– Cauchemar is a Greater Nightmare –
Bob
NightmareSr
So the new Large would be treated like that same "upper limit" for offerings, like the Guild House feels?

Yup, at least if it winds up equivalent to 4 mediums. It's also fine for it to be equivalent to less than that for now, thought I don't see much else on the horizon that seems like a better fit than the options mentioned so far.

NightmareSr
My thought was many crafting heavy Settlements are using/will use the Guild House cause having all refining and crafting the Guild House gives them the Freeholder and Expert with the Rogue, but if the same wanted to be different and use the combat alchemist they would still need the Freeholder medium to cover their needs. I was just trying to balance it to the benefits a settlement would get from each large.
Although I suppose if the crafting Alchemist is included then the medium Lab could be half covered making the Engineer's Institute more practical and allow the Freeholder to be built instead. Although that makes the inclusion of the Apothecary more viable in my opinion since it would free up a small spot to cover the Institute?
Hopefully this makes sense as I rambled a stream of consciousness. smile
Symmetry for settlement structures is nice.

True, making it more like the Guild House would make it easier to trade out for existing settlements. Then again, it's also nice to nudge settlements toward making different choices, and mixing up the way structures overlap can help with that. Ultimately, if it covers the some number of smaller structures as the Guild House, there'll be a way to cover all the same trainers and other capabilities, minus the skirmisher/rogue stuff being traded out for alchemist attacks/general.
NightmareSr
Well new additions to the game are always exciting, but i'll try to be patient until the final decisions are made.
Is there any artwork/manipulation needed for the new buildings, or what sort of timing do you anticipate for the new structures?
Settlement structures take a long time to build and more to change out, so planning ahead seems to be the key.
I'll just balance on the edge of my seat for now. smile
- Wandering gatherer (NightmareSr#2669 on discord)
– Cauchemar is a Greater Nightmare –
Bob
NightmareSr
Well new additions to the game are always exciting, but i'll try to be patient until the final decisions are made.
Is there any artwork/manipulation needed for the new buildings, or what sort of timing do you anticipate for the new structures?
Settlement structures take a long time to build and more to change out, so planning ahead seems to be the key.
I'll just balance on the edge of my seat for now. smile

I'll mostly be repurposing existing art and using chunks of the existing structures, but I'll try to mix/match/shuffle things enough to make the new structures stand out from the rest. I'll take a quick look at the unused assets to see if any seem appropriate and finished enough to use, but I don't recall anything that felt real alchemist-y from my last search.

We haven't talked much yet about how to schedule this in with what's already planned f, or the next few updates. Ultimately, there are 18 structures involved (3 structures with 6 upgrades each), so even minor tweaks from existing structures add up quickly. Hopefully we can manage to fit them in during the next 2-3 upgrades, but we'll see.
Edam
If you do freehold and expert it gets very similar to guildhouse making it an either/or style choice. it would be silly to have both.

The library trainer plus expert combo, mentioned earlier, is a lot less dichotomous. It would then make sense to consider both a guildhouse and large alchemical trainer.

Is that a good thing or bad thing ? no idea ….
Cauchemar
I know you are all excited about the new combat role, but I hope this seemingly endless debate isn't going to delay the new role or buildings. You should probably just relax, Bob hasn't even had a chance to announce the rest of the new feats, assuming the new role is getting feature,armor,reactive and etc like the other roles have.
Cauchemar is a new settlement finding it's place on the edge of the Echo Wood in the Shadow of the impenetrable Fort Inevitable.
If you want to play however you like then join Cauchemar today, all are welcome.
any questions, contact me at: cauchemar.pfo@gmail.com
Bob
Cauchemar
I know you are all excited about the new combat role, but I hope this seemingly endless debate isn't going to delay the new role or buildings. You should probably just relax, Bob hasn't even had a chance to announce the rest of the new feats, assuming the new role is getting feature,armor,reactive and etc like the other roles have.

Fortunately, debates on feature implementation don't generally slow things down. The exception would be when the debate leads to additional work, but that's usually a good thing that makes the shipped feature better. Huzzah to Crowdforging!

Yes, the Alchemist will get a full suite of feats like other roles. I accidentally skipped over the Utility and Reactive Feats, but have some ideas for both of those that should be pretty easy to add. They've already got 3 Feature Feats and 7 Armor Feats, which I'll try to get up on the public spreadsheet today. And of course there are Proficiency Feats for Formula Book and Alchemist's Tools.
 
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