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Energy Resistance on all non-heavy armors

Azure_Zero
Hey GoblinWorks

I know OE 2.1 is coming

But I think this point should of been discussed with the player base.

Bob (OE 2.1 thread)
….

Miscellaneous:
  • Energy Resistance on all non-heavy armors has been reduced by 25% and will be steadily removed over time to make room for the increased energy resistance proved to lighter armors by enchantments.
  • …..

Now this is a major change, and SHOULD OF BEEN discussed with the players, before going in….
Especially if the plan is to entirely remove all energy resistances and force enchanting to get those energy resistances.
If that is the plan, congrats, you killed off a number of classes and cheesed off paying players, which means players will leave the game, killing it.
Now the most I'd say could be done with out messing up the classes and cheesing players, is about 25% to 33% off of energy resistances to the cloth, light and medium armours, and NO more.
Furthermore NEVER FORCE the NEED for ENCHANTING on Armours to get resistances they had before ya Nerf it to zero, it just leaves one heck of a bad taste in a player's mouth and that Goblinworks would do a move that'd start to make EA look good.

The Energy Resistance of non-heavy armours should of been discussed/crowd-forged before this change was put in the OE 2.1,
But I can see a bit from GW's angle, if you SUM the resistances together, the lighter the armour, the higher the SUM total, and means your beefer against more things especially At T2 and above mobs, and it's WAY easier to get a Physical Resistance Buff with Defensive feats, or via an armour feat.
(kinda sucks defensive and armour feats don't stack, but it's somewhat understandable).

And if you Look at the armours characters tend to be wearing, NO ONE is wearing Heavy Armour at all.
The Fighters and Clerics are in Medium in some cases Light armour,
the Rogues are doing Light or Medium if cross trained with either Cleric or Fighter,
the Wizards are using Cloth armour or Light armour if crossed with Rogue since Light armour has the Least impact of Arcane spell failure to Arcane attacks.

So I can see the need to get players looking at the Heavy armour, but GW is doing it the WRONG way if you nerf to energy to 0 and force enchantments.
The Best way to get Heavy armours back in the game (without a bad taste) is to start having MOBS that do High purely Physical Damage And is Immune (or Highly Resistant) to all Energy Attacks with minor to moderate physical resistance in ALL tiers.
This means it is a bigger threat, the lighter the armour one wears, and would give Wizards and Clerics pause about using their usual energy based attacks in a fight with a mob or escalations with this new mob.
It would force a tilting for a party in that the purely Physical combat character would now be way more useful and a weapon against this new threat that is introduced or GW could update some mobs to do more physical attacks and be more energy resistant or immune.
Bob
This is a pretty big shift in the way armors have been working, which is why we're implementing it in stages and why we waited until enchanting was well established before even starting. If it does turn out to cause problems, we can always make adjustments along the way, or stop if we magically hit a sweet spot.

That said, this has been the plan all along, even going back to some of the original blog posts about combat math during initial development. There've even been occasional comments over the years that the current energy resistances were only temporary until enchanting went in, and I think it came up as recently as the discussions when enchanting was going in.

It also just seems odd for lighter armors to naturally have energy resistance, especially the way it's currently implemented. Right now you get a big chunk of energy resistance just for wearing any +0 article of clothing. I could see an argument for adding/increasing energy resistance for some armor feats (particularly wizard/cleric armor feats), since at least then it's more about having a special skill at avoiding energy damage that can best be utilized when wearing lighter armor. That said, the effects already on those feats were designed with this change in mind, so hopefully they're already balanced to handle them. As always, there's no way to be sure until we see the planned system in use, at which point we can make adjustments as needed.
Azure_Zero
Well I will say, I do agree that it is odd for lighter armors to naturally have energy resistance.
But we have to remember this is a Fantasy setting, so that law of realism could be bent or broken some for the game to keep things in order and balanced.
(I could see folks being fine up to a max of 50% cut in energy resistances, but it'll require some new defense feats that can stack with other feats, unlike now where there is no stacking)

I've played using many armours against a number of different mobs, and I can say that a shift of resistances from one armour class to another has a big impact in survivability.
Try using heavy armour against Razmirians and you'll be cut like swiss cheese, while the Medium and Light armours offer the best survivability against them and pretty much every T2 and higher mob.
Heck even wizards have high survivability because pretty much every attack from a T2 or higher mob is energy based.

But right now, there is an issue, I've heard of with enchanting, mainly the mats.
Mats for stuff that'll make it's way to enchanting breakable stuff is freaking rare,
while the mats to make stuff that'll hardly see combat are plentiful.
That doesn't make sense if we are going to use enchanting for breakable items like armour.
Which means if GW wants to follow there plan, it'll need to open the valves on the enchantment mats a bit or a lot more.

Now I will say that the current energy resistance formula from enchanting, sucks, if the formula was
(Armour +(X+1)) * Resistance(Static of value of +4) * (Armour Type Value)
Armour Type = (1 for Heavy, 1.5 for Medium, 2 for Light, 2.5 for Cloth)
Then it'd make enchanting the lighter armours better and worth putting the energy resistance at +0 on the armours.
This way even a +0 Heavy armour get +4 resistance, while the +0 Cloth gets +10 resistance.
While there +5 versions are +24 and +60 respectively.
Maxen
Bravo on these changes. This will bring more value to crafting and enchanting instead of assuming a piece of mundane cloth has some intrinsic resistance. I'd love for the t-shirt and shorts I'm currently wearing to prevent me from getting a static shock when I rub my feet across the carpet, but it doesn't work that way.
Kenton Stone
Well now that we are going to have to customize our defenses with enchantments how about finally getting a Combat Log so we can see what is going on and what defenses need improvements.

It does not even have to be on screen just a key press to begin logging and it writes a txt file I can review later.

Maxen
Kenton Stone
Well now that we are going to have to customize our defenses with enchantments how about finally getting a Combat Log so we can see what is going on and what defenses need improvements.

It does not even have to be on screen just a key press to begin logging and it writes a txt file I can review later.

Agreed. We need this info.
Rhethwyn
Kenton Stone
Well now that we are going to have to customize our defenses with enchantments how about finally getting a Combat Log so we can see what is going on and what defenses need improvements.

It does not even have to be on screen just a key press to begin logging and it writes a txt file I can review later.

Lacking both a combat log AND appropriate Pathfinder stat-tables, gamers are utterly hobbled. Both are Players cannot understand precisely what they are doing and what is being done to them without this information. It is sub-standard in the gaming industry, and needs to be an integral part of any Minimum Viable Product.

Bob, this is a real need, not just "oh, that would be really swell if we could." Without at least one of these the game is a lame duck when it comes to marketing - but I'll be posting more about that in a separate post.

Take-away: give players the standard tools all player expect when playing a game like PFO.
Edam
Some random thoughts:

  1. Basically we are replacing a system that gives resistance to all energy types with one that deliberately makes it hard to resist more than a couple at a time so we are forced to choose what resistances to equip. Yet as pointed out, it is very difficult to work out what an incoming energy type is. I suppose you could stand there in heavy armor and work out the damage you are taking with zero resistances then swap in various resistance types to see what reduces the damage. Providing the attack is only a single energy type you would eventually get an idea. Then you need to rinse and repeat for every mob in the game.
  2. An initial exploration of making resistance items has revealed they are among the harder items to collect/gather mats for in the game. We may be talking dozens of hours gathering/mob-farming just to make one item for one character. Yet we are meant to be wearing energy resistance enchantments by default? This is going to be sort of feasible for higher level organised groups but pretty much means new players will have no energy resistances.
  3. The only saving grace here is that at higher levels the resistances do little anyway and saves become increasingly significant.
Bob
Azure_Zero
But right now, there is an issue, I've heard of with enchanting, mainly the mats.
Mats for stuff that'll make it's way to enchanting breakable stuff is freaking rare,
while the mats to make stuff that'll hardly see combat are plentiful.

It's true that the demand curves didn't take into consideration whether or not the enchantments involved were likely to go on items that would get carried into combat or not. I should probably adjust the calculations to account for that, then have any future enchantment recipes make heavier use of enchanting mats that are currently underused. That said, I did try to make sure that every enchanting mat is reasonably available somewhere, so there should always be somewhere to go if something is needed in quantity.

Azure_Zero
Now I will say that the current energy resistance formula from enchanting, sucks, if the formula was
(Armour +(X+1)) * Resistance(Static of value of +4) * (Armour Type Value)
Armour Type = (1 for Heavy, 1.5 for Medium, 2 for Light, 2.5 for Cloth)
Then it'd make enchanting the lighter armours better and worth putting the energy resistance at +0 on the armours.

I'm open to some adjustments to the formula, particularly at the +0 end. That said, the 1x/2x/3x/4x progression from heavy to cloth was chosen precisely because it's extreme. The goal has always been that fighters can't build up much energy resistance just as wizards can't build up much physical resistance.
Bob
Kenton Stone
Well now that we are going to have to customize our defenses with enchantments how about finally getting a Combat Log so we can see what is going on and what defenses need improvements.

Combat logs are high on the list of features we'd like to add, but even a fairly simple one that just output text to the log files would still require a fair amount of work to capture a reasonable percentage of everything that goes into the combat calculations. It's possible we could start out with something simple that just said "A attacked B and did C total D-type damage" and slowly build from there. That might be a little easier to implement something quick, but the combat system is complicated enough that even that might not be as simple as it sounds.
 
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