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The Return of Max Influence

Flari-Merchant
Bob,
If you were to implement something along the lines that you are proposing, would abandoned and/or unaffordable Holdings REALLY be removed from the map, freeing up these hexes?
Rynnik
Flari-Merchant
Bob,
If you were to implement something along the lines that you are proposing, would abandoned and/or unaffordable Holdings REALLY be removed from the map, freeing up these hexes?
It seemed pretty clear on Thursday when he made the initial post that they REALLY would be:
Bob
Our existing Max Influence code would kick in and start shutting down holdings and outposts whenever a company's Max Influence drops below its Banked Influence, with holdings and their outposts being torn down any time a holding stays shut down for more than 7 days.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I would argue that crafting and gathering influence should give the same influence as PvE and PvP. Even dedicated PvPers have to come to grips with the fact that crafters and gatherers are the backbone of gear for their alliances and for an economy. Players and their companies should be rewarded appropriately. Without them we couldn't exist.

I also like the idea of making holdings cost more influence to maintain them the further away they are. I think it should be implemented differently based on what I proposed about using company activity for both expenditures and generation for calculating max influence instead of the current proposed system. Under my proposal things like feuds, placing holdings and raids will also count for calculating max influence, allowing new companies additional avenues to get higher influence caps to build up and take land. It also makes raids worth something. I would also add that companies without settlements should be supported to trainer level 4 at least for early to mid T2 support. A large enough group of t2 could potentially have a chance to take on our current T3 groups if they have a lot of numbers. T1 doesn't stand a chance.

Now, instead of increasing a tax for far away hexes, increase the base cost for each level of holding and outpost depending on distance and make it apply retroactively. Make it a percentage of the cost each level (the core six should be unmodified as I think folks should have to work to surround the core six) based on distance from the settlement. It will immediately force existing players not to have far flung heavily fortified holding empires and have to decide which settlements they need and which ones they can afford to let go.

I would say that instead of hexes completely losing holdings due to being over max influence they should only be shut down to soften the blow, same with holdings that belong to companies of inactive settlements. Shut down holdings should not have guards, do not generate any resources and do not provide protection for nearby holdings. That last part is crucial because part of the issue with too much space taken is that many of those hexes cannot be attacked due to them being protected. Losing hexes to a shut down not only makes those hexes much easier to take but opens the gateway to other hexes too.

Besides, let a new company get a +6 watchtower holding if an inactive company leaves it ripe for the taking. Not the new guys fault an old company left it there. Let em gain a real foothold somewhere. A new company that needs to build from scratch will get stomped by the existing playerbase.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Rynnik
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I would say that instead of hexes completely losing holdings due to being over max influence they should be shut down to soften the blow, same with holdings that belong to companies of inactive settlements. Shut down holdings should not have guards, do not generate any resources and do not provide protection for nearby holdings. That last part is crucial because part of the issue with too much space taken is that many of those hexes cannot be attacked due to them being protected. Losing hexes to a shut down not only makes those hexes much easier to take but opens the gateway to other hexes too.
That doesn't address the issue of a player like me returning to the game (or worse just starting) getting interested enough to decide to make the leap to running their own hex (so exciting!!!) with holdings or outposts, only to discover there isn't a single place on the map to do that without engaging in full on warfare… That is a big leap to make when you are still learning how feats are put together and keywords interact much less all the influence, feud and PvP window mechanics.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Rynnik
Paddy Fitzpatrick
I would say that instead of hexes completely losing holdings due to being over max influence they should be shut down to soften the blow, same with holdings that belong to companies of inactive settlements. Shut down holdings should not have guards, do not generate any resources and do not provide protection for nearby holdings. That last part is crucial because part of the issue with too much space taken is that many of those hexes cannot be attacked due to them being protected. Losing hexes to a shut down not only makes those hexes much easier to take but opens the gateway to other hexes too.
That doesn't address the issue of a player like me returning to the game (or worse just starting) getting interested enough to decide to make the leap to running their own hex (so exciting!!!) with holdings or outposts, only to discover there isn't a single place on the map to do that without engaging in full on warfare… That is a big leap to make when you are still learning how feats are put together and keywords interact much less all the influence, feud and PvP window mechanics.

Fair enough, yeah perhaps those holdings should be torn down.

But what about the last problem I mentioned about existing players being able to walk all over them once new guys place holdings? Unless they were able to build up enough to get +6 (which may take some time to figure out how), an existing group may have the men and certainly gear and experience advantages to send them packing and back to square one.

Setting companies without settlements to tier 2 support will mitigate it but not truly prevent it.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Rynnik
Paddy Fitzpatrick
But what about the last problem I mentioned about existing players being able to walk all over them once new guys place holdings? Unless they were able to build up enough to get +6 (which may take some time to figure out how), an existing group may have the men and certainly gear and experience advantages to send them packing and back to square one.

Setting companies without settlements to tier 2 support will mitigate it but not truly prevent it.
You are making some really great points Paddy, great stuff.

Lets keep the conversations straight though. We are discussing a small activity requirement for holding hexes and I am supporting it because of what I see as a massive disconnect between the sadly low player base (empty world) who is biding time AFK in some cases and the shockingly full map (no room to grow without a fight). The answer to a new group who wants to take on ACTIVE vets is to take the long long time to do it themselves or more reasonably to join up with and bring life and activity to one of the existing T3 powerhouses that can equip and support them as they get the exp to hit various thresholds.

The question of what new groups do with ACTIVE resistance is not the same as AFK resistance and maybe (probably?) can't be addressed by the same mechanics. My joining this discussion is predicated by coming back to the game and sussing out a bit of the old players activity levels, and then being completely shocked the game had been running in such a way that there was no empty space on the map as there was no reason whatsoever for a group (or even just a solo player) to leave some.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Flari-Merchant
Rynnik
Flari-Merchant
Bob,
If you were to implement something along the lines that you are proposing, would abandoned and/or unaffordable Holdings REALLY be removed from the map, freeing up these hexes?
It seemed pretty clear on Thursday when he made the initial post that they REALLY would be:
Bob
Our existing Max Influence code would kick in and start shutting down holdings and outposts whenever a company's Max Influence drops below its Banked Influence, with holdings and their outposts being torn down any time a holding stays shut down for more than 7 days.
The intent was made clear. I am just hoping, for the sake of returning and potential incoming players, that it doesn't wind up being a facet of the new mechanic that gets put off for "reasons". Like "we were unable to get to that part of the job, for now" etc…

Previously there has been Paizo push back on the idea of abandoned Holdings being removed.

To get behind it, seems like it would only be effective if it was a full package. Otherwise it is just another annoying thing to keep track of.
Rynnik
Flari-Merchant
Rynnik
Flari-Merchant
Bob,
If you were to implement something along the lines that you are proposing, would abandoned and/or unaffordable Holdings REALLY be removed from the map, freeing up these hexes?
It seemed pretty clear on Thursday when he made the initial post that they REALLY would be:
Bob
Our existing Max Influence code would kick in and start shutting down holdings and outposts whenever a company's Max Influence drops below its Banked Influence, with holdings and their outposts being torn down any time a holding stays shut down for more than 7 days.
The intent was made clear. I am just hoping, for the sake of returning and potential incoming players, that it doesn't wind up being a facet of the new mechanic that gets put off for "reasons". Like "we were unable to get to that part of the job, for now" etc…

Previously there has been Paizo push back on the idea of abandoned Holdings being removed.

To get behind it, seems like it would only be effective if it was a full package. Otherwise it is just another annoying thing to keep track of.

Gotcha. Bolded emphasis mine:
Bob
Our existing Max Influence code would kick in and start shutting down holdings and outposts whenever a company's Max Influence drops below its Banked Influence, with holdings and their outposts being torn down any time a holding stays shut down for more than 7 days.
I'm sure Bob will reassure you if that is what he meant once he has a chance to get through our many :words:. smile
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
harneloot
If they are going to do it, they should go all the way and wipe the board once the Unity Upgrade gets done and completely relaunch the game. Otherwise, even if the suggestions on reducing influence to (hopefully) open up some hexes to new players is implemented, I don't think the game is going to go anywhere. The map has only been 100% full for a few months, not a few YEARS. The fact that there are no hexes to place holdings in is not what is preventing the game population from growing, and without a population of *at least* 250 active players, the game world will remain on life-support. Heck, Nails couldn't even give away a Settlement and all its open core 6 hexes to a gaming group that peeked in about a year ago or so. A few of them tried the game out for a very short bit but they didn't stick. There hasn't really been a new player that has stuck and stayed active since Nightmare (as far as I am aware - don't shoot me if I'm wrong on that point).

I've always been a staunch proponent of no wipe ever. However, if everyone thinks opening up a few hexes is going to save the game I think they are a tad delusional. The Tens Of Hundreds of people are only ever going to give the game a chance if the game is relaunched and everyone has a chance to start on even ground. Sure, the vets will have all that XP ready to spend, but they will still be gated behind the achievements and the mats for gear and finding the recipes etc.

If everyone else thinks that just making people (me) log in more often to kill some mobs, gather or craft enough to maintain my influence banked in my current holdings is going to save the game, then I'll jump on board and support with my sub, but I don't think its the real long term answer we need for a truly Living River Kingdoms.

ps - welcome back btw Rynnik. Maybe you can pull Tuffon & Lilith back in too (they were playing on and off this past year but haven't been around at all for a few months).
Xyzzy - gatherer, yeoman archer, swamp monster.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
If we are going to go as far as a wipe once unity upgrade is done (preferably also after Alchemist is done too), then also maybe we can go a bit further and have a smaller map. One thing that also isn't fun is the constant run sim from one far flung area to the other. With a small pop just with us and a steadily growing one you will never interact with one another or meet anyone. Just a large world that takes forever to get from point A to point B.

At this point let's be real the existing groups only need maybe 1-3 settlements tops to get everything they need for what they wanna do. There is no need to have so many more derelict settlements all over the place to even have a settlement collector problem in the first place.

However that is an entire topic on its own.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
 
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