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The Return of Max Influence

Azure_Zero
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Azure_Zero
@ Paddy
I don't think this tax will work on settlement collectors, since all they need is ONE freaking holding.
If you want to knock out settlement collectors, change it so they NEED to control ALL 6 of the core 6 hexes

What do you mean? It was my understanding that you needed more than one holding for DI purposes and to take a settlement that was empty you needed holdings around the core six? Did that change?

No a way was found so that you'd only need one hex and it didn't need to be a Core 6 hex either.
The way does NEEDS a more bulk resources since it is using a crap ton of infrastructure buildings to generate the needed DI for a settlement to have the Keep and run at level 9 or 10 support.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Wait what the fuck?

You mean to tell me that instead of the hexes that were arranged to be self sustaining with some room for extra bulk some guy only has to use one random hex for DI with some infinite bulk wealth lying around that would make Batman blush?

If that is the case then yeah make it like a minimum of six hexes for DI from holdings to count. Though not necessarily the core six cause there may be better nearby hexes for different resources.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Rynnik
harneloot
ps - welcome back btw Rynnik. Maybe you can pull Tuffon & Lilith back in too (they were playing on and off this past year but haven't been around at all for a few months).
Thanks! We will see if I convince others to wander back. Hopefully I get hooked in for a good long while myself again this time.



I REALLY don't support the concept of any sort of wipe or reset for PFO. It just isn't relevant to the games problems. And in my opinion it creates more issues than it solves. I won't play Crowfall when it finally crawls into release because of their resetting design goals and I'd definitely be out the door again on PFO never to return if hard resets happen.

EVE Online in Alpha and Beta was a terrible mess. Looked and felt as bad as PFO combat, was even harder to understand, and yet it grew year after year. People joined and played that game and continue to do so even now after they have ruined the game by doing their best to strip all PvP out of it. I personally joined the game well after people could already do titan drops and after entire player empires had risen, peaked, and finally collapsed. Personal power and wealth DOESN'T MATTER to a new player joining an interesting world (wealth only if in the context of a healthy and functioning economy see Darkfall: Unholy Wars for a case study of how the bombed a fantasy MMO open world). Static collective power does matter however. Imagine if one of the first large power organizations in EVE (we will call them BoB for Band of Brothers because, well, EVE History) had been able to log in once a month and hold all their systems by watching pvp windows and dropping by with superior force whenever something was threatened. The game would have died a log time ago. A new player to EVE can live in an NPC station (Thornkeep) build there own Player Owned Station, now called citadels, as small groups (company building a holding with some outposts) and finally graduating into Nullsec Alliances (joining the real settlement game of PFO). It is a healthy progression that opens the game up in a way that makes sense. PFO currently doesn't have that capacity because of lack of space to grow.

Now I said I was against hard resets and I meant it but I am ALL about soft resets of collective AND personal power with caveats. Lets cover personal first: I think the design is GOOD that you can have player power that is locked out by settlement upkeep, you know it is there but the cost keeps it unreachable even though you have unequivocally bought it; I think the design is GOOD if the amount of trinkets and doodads and coins in your bank has stayed the same but their value has changed because of someone beating you in economic PvP and the variances of a healthy economy. The design is bad however if someone just takes away EXP or the sinks and balances are so mismanaged that everyone has so much of everything that the economy is completely broken (see Darkfall: Unholy Wars again). Hopefully everyone in this player base is roughly on the same page about that (I'm very encouraged to come back and see something like Maker's General Store and valuation price lists existing as very concrete evidence of healthy economic management by Bob and team).

Talking about collective power however there appears to be a great deal of entitlement STILL in PFO. I don't know if it still goes all the way back to the good old land rush. I don't CARE. I DON'T CARE how long or how hard you have worked to create your personal settlement of top tier everything. I mean I acknowledge and love your hard work and dedication but I don't care to continue to memorialize that because it is bad for the game.

One person should never be able to keep a settlements doors open. Even if you played perfectly 23/7 doing all the exact right things at the exact right times from downtime to downtime, level 20 solo should be impossible. Our small groups in this limited player base should be crammed into one settlement (oneish, I don't remember how many you need to have one of every trainer in the game) by the necessity and pressure of the requirement to maintain the top level required for all these fun goodies and personal powers you have invested into after all these times. THAT would be a healthy game for new players to load into these days. One settlement with our varied and interesting personalities bashing into each other and fighting to keep the lights on as we continue to enjoy this game, maybe having some companies leave due to hurt feelings and even sustain a second player group, maybe subsuming and replacing that first group. Who knows. But that will never happen without a slow and consistent pressure that makes meaningful choices necessary to enjoy the largess and high living of driving around those Titans (*cough* sorry not EVE) running around in T3 +3 nuking escalations and crafting the best of the best new Combat Alchemist Enchants.

EVE would be dead if BoB still had stations in Nullsec with one guy logging in to flick the light switch and log back out. EVE creates space for all the players, new, mid, experienced and that allows the game to grow and change without ever having to wipe or reset, PFO is set up to do that but NOT while maintaining the entitlements of those land rush rulers who don't want to lose that prize after all this time and all those months of building.
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Rynnik
harneloot
The map has only been 100% full for a few months, not a few YEARS.
This is also a VERY important thing that I forgot to elaborate on in my wall of text above.

If this is the case (I obviously wasn't around to know one way or the other) it seems to me that Bob and the team are addressing this at EXACTLY the right time. Have some faith folks. They are looking for the right levers because now is the time to address this issue. While it might crush a few personal sandcastles along the way they have done an excellent job (from an outside perspective) since I left and looks like they are tackling the next obstacle along the road of PFOs success at the exact time they need to.

The game needs the unity upgrade from what I can tell. (I'm not a programmer or tech guy). Once things like combat desync, animation and sound, all those little things that contribute to the feel of this unique re-imagining of what WoW could have been if it wasn't a terrible game, get cleaned up this game really could achieve a long life as EVE: 2.0 Fantasy Version. smile
Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.
Azure_Zero
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Wait what the fuck?

You mean to tell me that instead of the hexes that were arranged to be self sustaining with some room for extra bulk some guy only has to use one random hex for DI with some infinite bulk wealth lying around that would make Batman blush?

If that is the case then yeah make it like a minimum of six hexes for DI from holdings to count. Though not necessarily the core six cause there may be better nearby hexes for different resources.

There is a reason I say the Core 6 and not any 6 hexes,
it's to stop a settlement collector from picking any 6 hexes tucked away deep in their protected territory and likely also away from a monster hex that could possibly shut it down for up to 3 days which could cause enough of DI and bulk issue that it goes into failed DI payment.
Nails
harneloot
If they are going to do it, they should go all the way and wipe the board once the Unity Upgrade gets done and completely relaunch the game. Otherwise, even if the suggestions on reducing influence to (hopefully) open up some hexes to new players is implemented, I don't think the game is going to go anywhere.

I agree with Harneloot, I think that I would actually enjoy a hard reset as long as we don't lose the XP we paid for. Bob could limit the number of settlements to say 5 or 6 and let the current factions determine which one of their current settlements do they want to keep or if they want to move to a new location on the map. Give each settlement their own core 6 in holdings that they can choose and some stock bulk to keep a level 1 or 2 settlement going for a couple of months. Let everyone build their toons again, as someone said, each toon would still need to clear gates to get to T2 or T3. A vast majority of hexes on the map would be open and as companies form and gain influence, they can put down holdings again to keep their settlement going.

With the right promotion on the relaunch and the hard reset, there could be a lot of new interest in the game.
Nails
Starchild
OK, time for me to weigh in on this too while I am briefly out of hospital smile

Maxen, Kenton and Rynnik have all made some good points explaining why Bob's plan is not just good but essential, anything else is just making life easy for the "AFK old guard" at the expense of new/active players. It needs to go in but at a level that makes it possible for reasonably active settlements to maintain a decent level.

Some suggestions that might make life a bit easier:-
1. Some process to allow holdings and outposts to be transferred from less active to more active companies without needing to tear tyhem down and put them back up again.
2. A way of transferring influence between companies.
Maybe implement this by allowing a company to disband and pass their influence and holdings to a successor company? This would allow us to line up active characters with the holdings and outposts that they need to support without a vast exercise to tear stuff down (with the risk each time of someone "stealing" the spot)
3. Allow crafting and gathering to generate a reasonable amount of influence so that crafting-focussed companies/settlements can compete.

Well that's my 2c - back to hospital again Thursday :/

Starchild

If influence is going to degrade, I agree with Starchild on the above items.
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Azure_Zero
Paddy Fitzpatrick
Wait what the fuck?

You mean to tell me that instead of the hexes that were arranged to be self sustaining with some room for extra bulk some guy only has to use one random hex for DI with some infinite bulk wealth lying around that would make Batman blush?

If that is the case then yeah make it like a minimum of six hexes for DI from holdings to count. Though not necessarily the core six cause there may be better nearby hexes for different resources.

There is a reason I say the Core 6 and not any 6 hexes,
it's to stop a settlement collector from picking any 6 hexes tucked away deep in their protected territory and likely also away from a monster hex that could possibly shut it down for up to 3 days which could cause enough of DI and bulk issue that it goes into failed DI payment.

Could just do it where it is 1 hex away from core six as well. That would give some flexibility while still preventing the problem of tucking a holding away.

Other ways to stop settlement collection can be discussed in a different thread.
Paddy Fitzpatrick - Rí Ruírec of Fianna, roaming bands of noble warriors!
Member of Aragon Alliance and home of bandits, privateers, and anyone looking to get away from the shackles of law.
Find us on PFO Discord
Azure_Zero
Nails
harneloot
If they are going to do it, they should go all the way and wipe the board once the Unity Upgrade gets done and completely relaunch the game. Otherwise, even if the suggestions on reducing influence to (hopefully) open up some hexes to new players is implemented, I don't think the game is going to go anywhere.

I agree with Harneloot, I think that I would actually enjoy a hard reset as long as we don't lose the XP we paid for. Bob could limit the number of settlements to say 5 or 6 and let the current factions determine which one of their current settlements do they want to keep or if they want to move to a new location on the map. Give each settlement their own core 6 in holdings that they can choose and some stock bulk to keep a level 1 or 2 settlement going for a couple of months. Let everyone build their toons again, as someone said, each toon would still need to clear gates to get to T2 or T3. A vast majority of hexes on the map would be open and as companies form and gain influence, they can put down holdings again to keep their settlement going.

With the right promotion on the relaunch and the hard reset, there could be a lot of new interest in the game.

doing the reset is being discussed here
Edam
The real issue with big resets is you get the 4th Ed problem where you replace a lot of experienced knowledgeable core players with a batch of new and often transient churn players. Ironically big resets do not necessarily appeal that much to completely new players who tend to like the idea of having more experienced characters about to learn from. It more appeals to the middle echelon who feel they are being "glass ceiling-ed" by the current perceived "elite". Problem is they will become the new elite and the next middle echelon will push for a new reset and it goes around and around.

As for settlements, you can run a T3 combat character happily in a level 15/16 settlement if you over-train a few things (like take your armor feat to 13 or 14 instead of 12). However running a T3 combat character in a settlement below 14 will start to nerf you unless you focus almost entirely on a single role and buy a cottage.

What does require a level 20 settlement (or an awful lot of characters with one craft cottage each)is doing any sort of high level crafting - Avengers Weapons, Crusaders Scale, Fine Truesilver Chain etc etc cannot be made in a low level settlement at all.
 
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