The Return of Max Influence

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 12:03
	I'll be posting something up soon that'll be removing some of the UNFUN chores, but at the same time depending on how my idea is setup could open up possibilities for NEW players to get started in claiming stuff and getting their own settlement. Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:28
	Azure_Zero Rynnik The fact that 'settlement collectors' is even a phrase being thrown around in this discussion should be setting off alarm bells that there is a serious issue here. Well actually it is just one settlement collector in game at the moment and he is known to most of the groups as such, but oddly he is stopped by the Aragon alliance from taking more settlements all thanks to their expansion of territory that this tax takes aim at, while the tax would be impacting him and his collection little. Now I do say it's best to nip any that decide to follow him along with that known collector, but at the same time not nuke the casuals. I don't care what that one player does and I don't care who choses to stop them or not. The point is what the system allows and supports. A system where such a small player base can OVER YEARS sustain so many level 20 settlements and holding capped hexes is the issue to address. Somewhere measured against one person 'doing the right things' 23/7 is the right amount of activity in game required for play in the 'settlement' level of the games systems. The current system is broken by the utterly conclusive metric of running around the game for a while as a player back after a few years of absence and seeing where they could place a holding. Should one player have enough time in their day to solo maintain a settlement? 3 of them? All of them? Flari-Merchant A few things: 1. The fact that everyday play options are both lacking and less than truly varied is why you see such absentee, rich advanced players. They have been there and done that until it has gotten old and a bit stale. Or, Unfun anymore. Not to mention frustration about things like banking and combat bugs. I don't have an issue with that. It sorta is what it is. Game has improved noticeably since I last played. It will likely continue to do that. Players have and will ALWAYS have their feats and exp whether they are playing actively or not. They will have their wealth and bank and the value of it will depend on the health of the economy whether they are actively playing or not. Reading through this thread though it is readily apparent to me is that people expect to have their settlements and holdings whether they play or not, and I think that is really unhealthy as a returning player. Personal power and wealth should be secure to a returning player, but deterioration of COLLECTIVE POWER AND SETTLEMENTS allows space for new players who aren't AFK. Flari-Merchant 2. At least my point of view is that I wish Paizo resources were focused more on making general play fun. Rather than trying to keep tweeking a system of structure and settlement management that is clearly not very good for a low pop game or one that is very open/facilitating to new blood being able to stake a claim in the game. I feel like they have been? I mean the entire ammo system has been added in with its sink of resources and re-balancing of a ton of the classes around the impacts of that. There is a new class in the game with all the bits and pieces that go with it. Enchanting and spellcrafting added another whole branch of crafting to the game. Other MMOs haven't added that much work in 3 years of dev time and the limitations and constraints of this team are open and transparent (looking at you EVE or Darkfall: Rise of Agon). I mean we'd all love the team to be swimming in Riot or Blizzard level resources but given what they have I was impressed by the changes since I stopped playing. Flari-Merchant 3. Without an aggressive plan for structure degrading and collapsing, the world will continue to be full of Holdings. A new tax and limit on Influence doesn't address any real significant move toward freeing up those hexes. They will just make more companies filled with more "imaginary characters that earn Influence fast at lower power levels. It doesn't have to be aggressive. But it SHOULD be that AFTER YEARS - yes YEARS - a low population should have resulted in some 'blank spaces' on the map. It hasn't and I think Bob is right to address it, and that adding the next holding should not ALWAYS the right answer for anyone running the settlements in this game. Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance. Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:28

Azure_Zero
Rynnik
The fact that 'settlement collectors' is even a phrase being thrown around in this discussion should be setting off alarm bells that there is a serious issue here.

Well actually it is just one settlement collector in game at the moment and he is known to most of the groups as such,
but oddly he is stopped by the Aragon alliance from taking more settlements all thanks to their expansion of territory that this tax takes aim at, while the tax would be impacting him and his collection little.
Now I do say it's best to nip any that decide to follow him along with that known collector, but at the same time not nuke the casuals.

I don't care what that one player does and I don't care who choses to stop them or not. The point is what the system allows and supports. A system where such a small player base can OVER YEARS sustain so many level 20 settlements and holding capped hexes is the issue to address. Somewhere measured against one person 'doing the right things' 23/7 is the right amount of activity in game required for play in the 'settlement' level of the games systems. The current system is broken by the utterly conclusive metric of running around the game for a while as a player back after a few years of absence and seeing where they could place a holding.

Should one player have enough time in their day to solo maintain a settlement? 3 of them? All of them?

Flari-Merchant
A few things:

1. The fact that everyday play options are both lacking and less than truly varied is why you see such absentee, rich advanced players. They have been there and done that until it has gotten old and a bit stale. Or, Unfun anymore. Not to mention frustration about things like banking and combat bugs.

I don't have an issue with that. It sorta is what it is. Game has improved noticeably since I last played. It will likely continue to do that. Players have and will ALWAYS have their feats and exp whether they are playing actively or not. They will have their wealth and bank and the value of it will depend on the health of the economy whether they are actively playing or not. Reading through this thread though it is readily apparent to me is that people expect to have their settlements and holdings whether they play or not, and I think that is really unhealthy as a returning player.

Personal power and wealth should be secure to a returning player, but deterioration of COLLECTIVE POWER AND SETTLEMENTS allows space for new players who aren't AFK.

Flari-Merchant
2. At least my point of view is that I wish Paizo resources were focused more on making general play fun. Rather than trying to keep tweeking a system of structure and settlement management that is clearly not very good for a low pop game or one that is very open/facilitating to new blood being able to stake a claim in the game.

I feel like they have been? I mean the entire ammo system has been added in with its sink of resources and re-balancing of a ton of the classes around the impacts of that. There is a new class in the game with all the bits and pieces that go with it. Enchanting and spellcrafting added another whole branch of crafting to the game. Other MMOs haven't added that much work in 3 years of dev time and the limitations and constraints of this team are open and transparent (looking at you EVE or Darkfall: Rise of Agon).

I mean we'd all love the team to be swimming in Riot or Blizzard level resources but given what they have I was impressed by the changes since I stopped playing.

Flari-Merchant
3. Without an aggressive plan for structure degrading and collapsing, the world will continue to be full of Holdings. A new tax and limit on Influence doesn't address any real significant move toward freeing up those hexes. They will just make more companies filled with more "imaginary characters that earn Influence fast at lower power levels.

It doesn't have to be aggressive. But it SHOULD be that AFTER YEARS - yes YEARS - a low population should have resulted in some 'blank spaces' on the map. It hasn't and I think Bob is right to address it, and that adding the next holding should not ALWAYS the right answer for anyone running the settlements in this game.

Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.

Quote

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 12:38
	@ Rynnik this tax will do nothing to settlement collectors, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable. This tax is NOT an answer that works, we need something that forces a change in thought of keeping a settlement and taking hexes along with opening up hexes like; * Requiring that a Settlement control it's core 6 (now this would start hurting settlement collectors more then the tax in some ways since they can't tuck a holding(s) far away into protected territory so no one can easily cause a fault in DI payment.) * Caps on the number of Holdings a settlement can have, would force settlements looking to expand any more into doing some very expensive in game work and open up some hexes. Edit: added clearity Quote

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 12:38

@ Rynnik
this tax will do nothing to settlement collectors, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable.

This tax is NOT an answer that works, we need something that forces a change in thought of keeping a settlement and taking hexes along with opening up hexes like;
* Requiring that a Settlement control it's core 6 (now this would start hurting settlement collectors more then the tax in some ways since they can't tuck a holding(s) far away into protected territory so no one can easily cause a fault in DI payment.)
* Caps on the number of Holdings a settlement can have, would force settlements looking to expand any more into doing some very expensive in game work and open up some hexes.

Edit: added clearity

Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:38
	Paddy Fitzpatrick Rynnik The fact that 'settlement collectors' is even a phrase being thrown around in this discussion should be setting off alarm bells that there is a serious issue here. Well there used to be more guys here from back when there were still more players and more factions. There was still enough people to contest land and alliances and whatnot kept shifting around, wheeling and dealing was happening and some of us even figures out how to do banditry It was a different time when my boys from good old Fianna came in years back and Aragon was kind enough to let us in despite (or perhaps because of) the trouble we were causing with our antics at the time. I remember that. Good times! Paddy Fitzpatrick But we learned very fast that everything is tied to settlement support. It is the only way your character can play the game in any meaningful way at all. With that came the issue of not being able to get support any other way. In my case if it wasn't for Aragon and their army backing us up my old guild never would have got off the ground and we definitely would not have taken Dun Baille much less build it up in any way. There is no other way to get territory if you are not given a chance by an existing group. The only way ANY changes that will allow new groups to build on their own and take hexes (empty or not) is to give an alternative way to get support for their character abilities. I've been saying that for years now. People are barely interested in keeping their own doors open with the 'un-fun' grind. Why would they be interested in blocking new groups? If inactivity resulted in attrition of build up so that areas (and in the case of a population this low, vast areas) were completely empty new groups could grow without even being known to the established AFKers. Instead of some bottomless bank tier 3 getting the notification that some of their collective power they were maintaining solo was going to go away, a new active group could actually leverage all of the current systems to build themselves some fun without having to compete for it immediately. Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance. Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:38

Paddy Fitzpatrick
Rynnik
The fact that 'settlement collectors' is even a phrase being thrown around in this discussion should be setting off alarm bells that there is a serious issue here.

Well there used to be more guys here from back when there were still more players and more factions. There was still enough people to contest land and alliances and whatnot kept shifting around, wheeling and dealing was happening and some of us even figures out how to do banditry

It was a different time when my boys from good old Fianna came in years back and Aragon was kind enough to let us in despite (or perhaps because of) the trouble we were causing with our antics at the time.

I remember that. Good times!

Paddy Fitzpatrick
But we learned very fast that everything is tied to settlement support. It is the only way your character can play the game in any meaningful way at all.

With that came the issue of not being able to get support any other way. In my case if it wasn't for Aragon and their army backing us up my old guild never would have got off the ground and we definitely would not have taken Dun Baille much less build it up in any way. There is no other way to get territory if you are not given a chance by an existing group. The only way ANY changes that will allow new groups to build on their own and take hexes (empty or not) is to give an alternative way to get support for their character abilities. I've been saying that for years now.

People are barely interested in keeping their own doors open with the 'un-fun' grind. Why would they be interested in blocking new groups?

If inactivity resulted in attrition of build up so that areas (and in the case of a population this low, vast areas) were completely empty new groups could grow without even being known to the established AFKers. Instead of some bottomless bank tier 3 getting the notification that some of their collective power they were maintaining solo was going to go away, a new active group could actually leverage all of the current systems to build themselves some fun without having to compete for it immediately.

Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.

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Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:40
	Azure_Zero @ Rynnik this tax will do nothing, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable. If this tax will do nothing what have you been posting about in the previous 7 pages? Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance. Quote

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 12:43
	Rynnik Azure_Zero @ Rynnik this tax will do nothing, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable. If this tax will do nothing what have you been posting about in the previous 7 pages? The tax will do nothing to Settlement Collectors, Guess I should of made that more clear. And the only ones that'll really feel it the most are the casual and or independent settlements. Quote

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 12:43

Rynnik
Azure_Zero
@ Rynnik
this tax will do nothing, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable.
If this tax will do nothing what have you been posting about in the previous 7 pages?

The tax will do nothing to Settlement Collectors, Guess I should of made that more clear.
And the only ones that'll really feel it the most are the casual and or independent settlements.

Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:53
	Azure_Zero Rynnik Azure_Zero @ Rynnik this tax will do nothing, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable. If this tax will do nothing what have you been posting about in the previous 7 pages? The tax will do nothing to Settlement Collectors, Guess I should of made that more clear. And the only ones that'll really feel it the most are the casual and or independent settlements. We don't care about the same thing. I think this change would produce a healthier PFO in the long term. Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance. Quote

Rynnik 06.22.2020 12:53

Azure_Zero
Rynnik
Azure_Zero
@ Rynnik
this tax will do nothing, as all they need is ONE freaking holding to keep a settlement and this tax will be nothing to break it and make the settlement claimable.
If this tax will do nothing what have you been posting about in the previous 7 pages?

The tax will do nothing to Settlement Collectors, Guess I should of made that more clear.
And the only ones that'll really feel it the most are the casual and or independent settlements.

We don't care about the same thing.

I think this change would produce a healthier PFO in the long term.

Not a member, representative, or supporter of Brighthaven Alliance.

Quote

Flari-Merchant 06.22.2020 13:06
	Rynnik I think this change would produce a healthier PFO in the long term. I won't argue that. I just do not think that as long as a player can make as many characters as they want, as many Charter Companies from them as they want and so generate easy Influence as much as they want it will do much good. Sure a FAIR tax that will not punish players who don't engage in such workarounds would eventually catch up but it sounds like a pretty uphill battle to sink those ships slowly. Spend effort on mechanics that can curb such behavior and solve the issue. Quote

Flari-Merchant 06.22.2020 13:06

Rynnik
I think this change would produce a healthier PFO in the long term.

I won't argue that. I just do not think that as long as a player can make as many characters as they want, as many Charter Companies from them as they want and so generate easy Influence as much as they want it will do much good.

Sure a FAIR tax that will not punish players who don't engage in such workarounds would eventually catch up but it sounds like a pretty uphill battle to sink those ships slowly.

Spend effort on mechanics that can curb such behavior and solve the issue.

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Flari-Merchant 06.22.2020 13:11
	Bob, I am hazy on all the intricacies of the rules at this point. Can FTP characters generate and gain Influence still? Can free trial characters still be generated and gain influence then hang out as "Company Members" indefinately still? Quote

Azure_Zero 06.22.2020 13:13
	All Free-Trail Mode characters CAN NOT generate Influence, that loop hole has been closed. They can be created and join companies as normal. Quote

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