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Stealth

Melien
Jazzlvraz
Melien
What happened to your killer only getting 10% of what you got as a choice and the rest showing up at your re-spawn?

I've been here since 2012, and I don't ever remember that being the way things were going to work. How long ago was that?

Been said by PFO all along that death does not yield everything you have as loot to your killer.

I think they way that they intend the husks to work is that they'll only have 10% of whatever you had on you in them.

In other words PFO does not want "Knives and Loincloths" which is what PvP degenerates to if your killer can have everything you got.
Nihimon
Jazzlvraz
Melien
What happened to your killer only getting 10% of what you got as a choice and the rest showing up at your re-spawn?

I've been here since 2012, and I don't ever remember that being the way things were going to work. How long ago was that?

Long, long time ago. Probably sometime around To Live and Die in the River Kingdoms.

Melien
Jazzlvraz
Melien
What happened to your killer only getting 10% of what you got as a choice and the rest showing up at your re-spawn?

I've been here since 2012, and I don't ever remember that being the way things were going to work. How long ago was that?

Been said by PFO all along that death does not yield everything you have as loot to your killer.

I think they way that they intend the husks to work is that they'll only have 10% of whatever you had on you in them.

In other words PFO does not want "Knives and Loincloths" which is what PvP degenerates to if your killer can have everything you got.

That's where Threading comes in. Also, you can't have powerful attacks if you don't have powerful gear, so the folks attacking you to try to steal your stuff are risking their stuff, too.
Nihimon murmurs in sheer ecstasy as the magic courses through his veins
Melien
Not much risk involved when stealth is made useless so thugs can have free targets.

So anyone gathering/crafting needs to carry nothing. Tired of being encumbered by looting a bag of rocks yet?

No knives, not even a loincloth.

Do we have meaningful PvP yet???

Go ahead and risk your better than starter gear. See what it get's you.

When Ryan says Looters get all your stuff I'll believe it. But I think he's said that that's not the case.

I'd be all for looters getting all your stuff. Provided they get:

No Regenerating Reputation. (did Ted Bundy's reputation get better because he didn't kill people for a few days?)
Perma-death when they're finally put down.

There's a reason Bank robbers and cattle rustlers were hunted down and hanged.
If PvP is that important then let them experience it the way it happened in real life.

Maybe PFO will allow settlements to create jails so they can lock those characters in them for 20 years.

What's that come out to at $15 a month to play a murdering thug rotting in a cell? Hope that destiny's twin is a bit better than his brother.

What could possibly be more fun than putting in months of game time (at $15 a month) to gain the skills, abilities and materials needed to create something just so it can be looted off your corpse the first time you leave town with it?

Perhaps it's time the devs started answering these questions in a way that makes it absolutely clear what is to be expected from this "meaningful" PvP?

That way Players can make up their mind if that's the type of game they wish to continue supporting.

And Best of all: Discussions of this type can stop. Because we'll all know.

All I Know is that PFO has continued to say "We do not want a game that ultimately Degenerates down to Knives and Loincloths". In a game where there is no justice for Looters and they just re-spawn. that's all it can be.
Kitsune
I almost feel like I'm feeding trolls, but I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you haven't been reading the Goblinworks Blog, which would answer many (all?) of these questions. Nonetheless, my responses to each part are below.

Melien
Not much risk involved when stealth is made useless so thugs can have free targets.
Stealth will not be useless once it it perfected and crowdforged to become something that pleases the player base while coinciding with GW's plans for it. Just throwing this out there: don't expect it to ever look like the rogues from World of Warcraft. Expect it to look more like the tabletop game.

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Melien
So anyone gathering/crafting needs to carry nothing. Tired of being encumbered by looting a bag of rocks yet? No knives, not even a loincloth. Do we have meaningful PvP yet??? Go ahead and risk your better than starter gear. See what it get's you.
Did anyone mention Threads of Pharasma? These, once implemented properly, will allow you to protect some your valuables from being dropped to your corpse/husk. Obviously you'll not be able to protect all of your belongings, but you'll have the option of picking what to protect, and what to risk. There's been plenty of talk about this all over both forums and the blogs. If you need any of it explained or have any questions, please ask and one of us would be happy to help.

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Melien
When Ryan says Looters get all your stuff I'll believe it. But I think he's said that that's not the case.
Correct: your threaded gear/items will never drop unless you intentionally unthread them. Some of your stuff will be automatically destroyed. The rest will be on your husk, and will be lootable by other players. For other players, it will be more time consuming/difficult to get the stuff, but rather easy for the corpse's "owner."

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Melien
I'd be all for looters getting all your stuff. Provided they get:
No Regenerating Reputation. (did Ted Bundy's reputation get better because he didn't kill people for a few days?)
Perma-death when they're finally put down. There's a reason Bank robbers and cattle rustlers were hunted down and hanged.
If PvP is that important then let them experience it the way it happened in real life.
I'm sorry, but perma-death will never, ever happen in PFO. Actually, I take that back. I suppose if 100% of all players in the game wanted perma-death, then Goblinworks might oblige. But short of that, we'll never see it.

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Melien
Maybe PFO will allow settlements to create jails so they can lock those characters in them for 20 years. What's that come out to at $15 a month to play a murdering thug rotting in a cell? Hope that destiny's twin is a bit better than his brother.
I think you said it yourself here: nobody's going to want to pay $15 for a game they can't play. So why on earth would GW put something like that in the game? To lose money that the murderers/bad-people would otherwise be paying them? That just seems … counter-intuitive for them, to say it best. If you would like more details on why this is a terrible idea, I'm sure one of us can pull a quote from Ryan from the Paizo boards that covers jails and why GW has no intention of implementing something like what you're describing. At the very least, look at the unpopularity that ideas like this one are on the ideascale website. I think that says something right there.

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Melien
What could possibly be more fun than putting in months of game time (at $15 a month) to gain the skills, abilities and materials needed to create something just so it can be looted off your corpse the first time you leave town with it?
And that's exactly why the Threads of Pharasma will exist: to protect your most precious belongings from this type of situation.

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Melien
Perhaps it's time the devs started answering these questions in a way that makes it absolutely clear what is to be expected from this "meaningful" PvP? That way Players can make up their mind if that's the type of game they wish to continue supporting.
I think going through the blogs will enlighten you considerably about how open and clear GW has been about their ideas of what meaningful PvP will be. It's a LOT of reading, I know. But it would show that Ryan and the team have been very, very forthcoming about what their plans are for this game. If you're going to tackle them, I'd suggest starting from the most recent and work your way backwards. Some ideas have changed drastically from their original inception two years ago.

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Melien
And Best of all: Discussions of this type can stop. Because we'll all know.
Why stop the discussions? After all, GW wants to hear from players like you and me. The whole point of these forums is for GW to have an open discussion with its customers/players to hear what we have to say! I, for one, am thankful we're able to take part in walking hand-in-hand on this journey to construct what I'm hoping will be the best MMO I've ever played. And I mean that.

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Melien
All I Know is that PFO has continued to say "We do not want a game that ultimately Degenerates down to Knives and Loincloths". In a game where there is no justice for Looters and they just re-spawn. that's all it can be.
Unfortunately the second part here is absolutely wrong. There will definitely be consequences for murderers, looters, criminals, and the like. Goblinworks is still working out a lot of the details, but they've made it very clear that they want to make it very difficult for players of this type to thrive in Pathfinder Online. Again, much of the details of specific penalties they have planned have been covered in the blogs. The rest of the details will be worked out over time with our help.
Jazzlvraz
Some Ryan-quotes that may help the discussion:

Ryan Dancey
Most people need guidelines and clear references to understand how their actions influence the results they obtain. Especially when you are talking about something as abstract as an MMO.

My thesis is that a bright, simple, clear guideline is needed to help people make good choices ("good" defined as "generating results that are generally in-line with my expectations and desires" )

A second thesis is that a lot of people will come to Pathfinder Online with two incorrect preconceptions about the way the game is played. Those two preconceptions are:

1: Open World PvP implies a murder simulator

2: Killing early, often, and without discrimination is the route to long-term success

These two preconceptions mutually reinforce each other. If #2 is true, #1 is inevitable. This is the trap that game after game after game fell into. (Sometimes they didn't "fall" into it as much as they embraced it as a design paradigm on purpose.)

We are going to break this pattern and we are going to redefine those preconceptions. In order to do that we must repeatedly and powerfully shock the system. One of those shocks is a negative feedback loop that links random killing to gimping character development.

Another, related problem is community toxicity. Observation tells us that toxicity proceeds from a sense of external fairness and justice not applying inside the game world simulation. 90% of people want to be treated fairly and justly. But the anonymous internet lets a small group of sociopaths act unfairly and unjustly - and those actions, if not harshly countered, leads a larger (but still small) group of people to act out power fantasies and work out issues they can't resolve in real life with aggression. The result is that the majority feels they are subjected to unfair and unjust experiences. And they leave.

We are going to actively attack community toxicity from the grass roots up. As I've said before there is no silver bullet to this problem. The approach we're going to use is a multi-layered approach. One of those layers is giving people an extremely clear message about their in-game behavior. If they act badly as defined by the desires of 90% of the community their bad actions will hurt their in-game power level. I feel reasonably confident I can proxy my opinion for what 90% of the people I intend to sell this game to want. We have lots of time to make minor adjustments and consider corner cases.

So the reason we're making a funnel of suck is to make it possible for our players to clearly see it, clearly understand its consequences, clearly understand how their in-game actions relate to that funnel, and clearly see that they can be and will be affected by it. And we accept up front that as a result there are some people who will be so frustrated by the straightjacket that they cannot be satisfied and happy within that system. And that's OK.

Ryan Dancey
The people who are likely to find our moderation of the game and it's community capricious and arbitrary to the point where it becomes an issue for them are also likely the source of many problems. If those people decide to leave, that's a win.

And, in response to:

KarlBob
Is death the only meaningful penalty in an MMO? No subdual and expulsion? No fines?

Obviously, imprisonment is unlikely to be tolerated by subscribers, who aren't paying to play a jail simulator, and death doesn't mean as much when convicts immediately resurrect, but it seems odd that a good society would punish all crimes by summary execution without trial.

Ryan Dancey
@KarlBob - the only meaningful penalty in an MMO is wasting player time. There's no "in game" penalty that matters. In a high intensity conflict there could be penalties related to the time it takes to enable a unit to return to the battlefield, but that's a special case.

The people we're meaningfully talking about don't care about fines, subdual or expulsion. They care nothing for these things because they have effectively unlimited funds, strings of alts (both ready to play and in long-term deep cover cold storage) and no meaningful connection between a human and a game character.

The way you affect these people's behavior is by making the human bored. Bans make them bored (they have to make new accounts and waste time with newbie things like tutorials and accumulating whatever starting stuff they need to get to where the player wants to be, etc.) Death makes them bored because they have to do whatever the game mechanic requires to negate the death, which cannot be too onerous or it drives away the casual players, or will just cause the player to switch to another account and/or character. So there's fine edge of how much boredom can be safely inflicted which varies from game to game, situation to situation.

But don't think in-game things matter.
Melien
I've read a lot of the blogs but information on the specifics of PvP has been hard to find.

Mostly all I've read is how they want it to be "meaningful", with some explanation about the War of Towers meeting that end. But not addressing what is probably the key most important part of it, random thuggery.

Specifically what sticks are going be in the game to mitigate the behavior they are trying to curtail?

Getting Reputation back at 200/hr doesn't exactly sound like much of a deterrent.
Two days and you're back in good standings, three and you're golden.

Perhaps If they would gather all the pertinent info and put it under the PvP thread (which it's not) then I and others could just drop this point, once we see our concerns have been addressed.
As for the Threads or Soul binding of items:
Will they be limited?
Can they be undone?
How is it expected to be done? (I understand that this may not be completely worked out yet).
Stealth in the Tabletop game has always been an opposed roll (in most circumstances).
Just being dropped out of Stealth whenever you perform an action is counter to that and the idea that that is what perception is for.

Which was the original topic which got us here. Free targeting for Thugs that don't have to invest Xp in Perception and in things that give you wisdom so you can increase your perception. Clerics the ultimate spotters???

Thanks Kitsune, for taking the time to bring more understand to all.
Kitsune
Melien
I've read a lot of the blogs but information on the specifics of PvP has been hard to find.

Mostly all I've read is how they want it to be "meaningful", with some explanation about the War of Towers meeting that end. But not addressing what is probably the key most important part of it, random thuggery.

Specifically what sticks are going be in the game to mitigate the behavior they are trying to curtail?
From my understanding, the sticks will mostly consist of limits on character training/development. There are mentions of "wretched hives of scum and villainy", which will be the only places that negative-reputation characters will be able to train and advance their characters. Said characters will be otherwise shunned from "normal" towns, etc. Why is this important? Well, simply, these negative-reputation towns will have limits to their training (e.g. won't be able to train higher levels of attacks and feats, etc.). These characters would need to "shape up" in order to be able to advance their characters.

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Melien
Getting Reputation back at 200/hr doesn't exactly sound like much of a deterrent.
Two days and you're back in good standings, three and you're golden.
I completely agree, actually. My hope is that this will be slowed way down from where it is now. However, I think the rapid regen of reputation as it is now is actually very appropriate for the current state of the game. It's currently all-too-easy to accidentally (due to bugs or lack of features or whatnot) attack a friendly PC/NPC and tank your reputation. Considering the wretched-hives are not implemented yet, this essentially completely disables your character from advancing until your reputation increases. Once the bugs are fixed and once there are some options for the low-rep characters, then I would definitely like to see the regen rate of reputation to be tanked.

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Melien
Perhaps If they would gather all the pertinent info and put it under the PvP thread (which it's not) then I and others could just drop this point, once we see our concerns have been addressed.
Well, Ryan has actually been working on this a little bit. See the latest revision of the combat guide here. I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for, or if you're looking for some more generalized information.

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Melien
As for the Threads or Soul binding of items:
Will they be limited?
Can they be undone?
How is it expected to be done? (I understand that this may not be completely worked out yet).
Yes, there will be a limit on them, and they can be re-assigned easily. I'm not sure on the mechanics yet, but I'm sure it'll just be a simple matter of checking a box for which items are threaded, with some indicator somewhere that shows how many threads you have remaining. There's some variables as to how many threads you have versus the amount it takes to thread different items, etc… and those details are in one of the blog entries. In short, expect to be able to thread most of the items you're wearing on your person (armor, weapon, etc.). If you want to risk some of those things, you'd be able to unthread them in favor of threading something in your backpack.

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Melien
Stealth in the Tabletop game has always been an opposed roll (in most circumstances).
Just being dropped out of Stealth whenever you perform an action is counter to that and the idea that that is what perception is for.
Yup! That's how it's going to be in the game: your detection will be 100% based on the perception of opposing characters. As for performing actions (such as looting your corpse): in the tabletop, doing such actions makes you take a negative to your opposed stealth check. I would sincerely hope that this is what the plan is for PFO. e.g. You loot your corpse, taking a -60 penalty (or whatever maths) to your stealth skill for determining whether an opponent notices you or not. I believe that would be ideally the best way to do this. And then perhaps maybe some feats or something that would help mitigate that nasty penalty to stealth for certain specific actions? Maybe.

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Melien
Which was the original topic which got us here. Free targeting for Thugs that don't have to invest Xp in Perception and in things that give you wisdom so you can increase your perception. Clerics the ultimate spotters???
Free targeting? No, not if my thoughts above are implemented. But if breaking stealth to perform actions… yeah that's basically free targeting, if I'm interpreting you correctly. Do not like. And as for wisdom/clerics… Perhaps? Shoot, GW has always wanted to give good reasons to encourage people to party-up. Hunting rogues? Bring a cleric.

Melien
Thanks Kitsune, for taking the time to bring more understand to all.

No problem! I'm very passionate about rogues, stealth, and everything related. I'm also a fan of helping people find answers.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
Melien
Mostly all I've read is how they want it to be "meaningful", with some explanation about the War of Towers meeting that end. But not addressing what is probably the key most important part of it, random thuggery.

It's possible your impression comes from a different understanding of the term, "meaningful."

In the PFO understanding, killing me to take my stuff is meaningful. I get killed because someone wants my stuff. They take a hit that provided a small reputation penalty. If they do that a few times a week, they can continue to function. If they do it too much, they'll be partially disabled for a period of time. Goblinworks understands meaningless as killing everyone you can, or killing one person over and over and over. Those are the behaviours they want to stop, without removing anyone's choice to play a bandit.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
Jazzlvraz
Kitsune
I'm not sure on the mechanics yet…

…you'd be able to unthread them in favor of threading something in your backpack.

Couple small changes:

1) You're not sure because they're not sure either; you've not missed anything on threading because there've been very few absolutes established…yet.
2) One of the few concrete clarifications they gave us was that only equipped items would be threadable. Nothing simply carried in the backpack can be made safe; if you're delivering the first +5 sword you've made, thread it while travelling, then break the thread when you hand it to the new owner.
Caldeathe Baequiannia
One thing I'm curious about is whether things like "bag of holding" are simply a buff, in the form of a passive "feat," or a real item. The key distinction being, whether they are an equippable/threadable item, and if so, will their contents come with them or not.
To reach me, email d20rpg@gmail.com
 
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