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All posts created by Bob

Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
You know that my vote will always be for craft materials being harder to find, AKA scarce. I don't see any other way to get the economy stimulated. If you haven't noticed, one of my characters is doing well selling coal for 50c/ea. I can't dig fast enough….

That is certainly always a risk when fiddling with the regeneration rates. On the other hand, this wouldn't change how fast you can gather, just how worried everyone has to be about over-gathering. Things will still be pretty scarce unless more people start doing a lot more gathering/harvesting. An exception would be for any resources that are currently constantly being strip-mined. For anything that's currently being gathered sustainably, this change would probably have a minimal effect.
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
Well I am pretty much resigned(now) to see how it goes. I realize that you can only test whether it works mechanically before you add it to "live". There isn't really a way to test whether it is extremely annoying once in "live", before then. Hopefully you will keep an eye on player feedback once we have tried it out for a few weeks.

Edit to Add: These types of things, including resource costs to run settlements and holdings, do not have any "give" in them for the number of players actually playing the game. Meaning no matter how many or how few bodies are around to "do things" and "react to things" the costs and requirements remain the same.

We'll keep an eye on things, and there are several methods we can use to scale things up or down that just involve spreadsheet changes. Currently, the idea is to set things so that it doesn't take very many players in a settlement/alliance to cover things. In particular, even the lowest-level guards can often hold off a very low-level invasion, such as typical goblins or bandits, for a very long time. Depending on exactly what gets spawned, they may even hold it off completely on their own. Upgrade your holdings a bit and you'll really only have to worry when the tougher escalations land near you.
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
Very few resources have 100+ pieces in any given hex. The exception being essences. Most any kit deployed that takes 100 of anything will damage that hex beyond responsible gathering levels if it takes one specific type of resource.

This is a very good point, and after checking the numbers there are indeed still lots of cases where particular resources start out at 100 or less. That has the potential to mean that the very resources you'd most want to harvest are the ones you really want to avoid harvesting.

I've been considering a change for a while now to resource regeneration that would make strip-mining a lot less punishing, and would thus also help with this problem. Currently, resources have a percentage chance of regenerating by 1% every 15 minutes, with the odds being the current percentage of that resource in the hex compared to its maximum value, with a minimum chance of 3%. When a resource is completely drained, that 3% chance means it could take a very long time before the resource recovers. And since the first part of that recover is so slow, even gathering a single unit of that resource during the early hours of recovery can significantly slow things down.

I'd like to try changing that chance to 50% plus half of the resource's current percentage, so the chance of regenerating would go from 50% to 100% as the resource recovers. That would still mean that a constantly strip-mined hex would overall produce half as much of that resource over time, but would typically recover 2-4% per hour, meaning full recovery would generally take 1 1/2 days. It would also mean that the early stages of recovery would be going quite a bit faster, so even just leaving the hex alone for 6 hours would likely mean recovering 12% or more of that resource, at which point an occasional gathering pull wouldn't be quite such a big deal.

Of course, this would greatly diminish the ability to use strip-mining as a form of economic attack, but currently that tactic can be extremely effective for very little effort. This change would still make it reasonably effective (even discounting the resources being gathered), but would require regular effort to maintain the strip-mined state.

Thoughts?
Bob
I've looked over the numbers for harvesting and gathering, and they do look a little underwhelming. The harvesting numbers are certainly very compelling in a lot of cases, but as expressed here, they often seem like just a small bump up in efficiency. I think the crux of the problem is that I'm using the original numbers for harvesting, but the gathering numbers were hacked to be doubled until harvesting was implemented. I'm loathe to slow down harvesting at this point, as the current gathering rewards don't seem too out-of-whack with the rewards for killing mobs and tackling escalations (in terms of rewards over time for similarly skilled characters). As such, I'm looking at doubling the number of resource cycles and halving the time between resource cycles for harvesting, meaning that you'd harvest twice as much in the same amount of time. There would still certainly be plenty of cases where a T3 gatherer wouldn't want to bother with T1 harvesting, but overall harvesting would be a lot more profitable. I'd also leave the drain on the hex's resources at 100, so the efficiency there would be more pronounced (since you'd get at least 200 resources out if the harvesting operation completes, and often more like 400-500).
Bob
Gross
A meteor hex will give 20-25 adamantine before degrading… so an adamantine or platinum gusher is a great thing, also for ghostwood type forester harvesting as 200-300 gusher is a 9x-10x output compared to responsible top level harvesting, and at a cost of at worst only double the time (depending on hex, some are slower some quicker to take all the top level but I budget 30 minutes in hex on average unless there is a high level escalation present) but for essence probably not that interesting, or things like some T3 forester resources that can give 140 odd in top level.

On the one hand, some of these numbers will have changed a bit with the reallocation of gathering resources coming in EE 13. In most cases, that will mean there's a bit more of some rarer resources, but your point certainly holds that some things get degraded quickly.

Of course, Harvesting still drains the resource, and by quite a bit, as soon as you deploy the Harvesting Kit. However, if you manage to survive the full production cycle, you'll produce more resources than you depleted from the hex, so that's a pretty good tradeoff. Still, just the act of putting down the Harvesting Kit could degrade a resource substantially below what you would intentionally do while gathering, so take care when harvesting really rare resources.
Bob
Nihimon
Bob
That said, we do want to make sure that the payoff is compelling…, so I'm open to arguments if the payoff seems like it would rarely be compelling.

I think the problem is that I, personally, had the expectation that Gushers would provide some multiple of value/time, rather than a modest percentage bonus to value/time.

As it stands now, it feels like we're talking about a 15% improvement at the cost (yes, it's a benefit to some) of fighting a bunch of mobs.

That implies that gathering 200 or so T3 resources over 40-45 minutes is fairly typical (or at least not very unusual) for high-level gatherers, assuming a decent hex for the chosen resource. Does that sound about right?
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
You need to possibly consider that as escalations go, each group doing them usually has a method, some plan for each group they tackle and finally players choose the groups that they tackle. The toughest escalations are going to be the ones that most groups will not want to tangle with wave after stronger wave of NPCs. The mostest bad A$$ critters will wipe whole parties because they will be uncontrolled conditions. A great deal of resources will be used more quickly than normal and so used up very early. Power will run out. Pots, grenades and all tokens will get used with no time to break and get more. If it takes a few gear hits and maybe too many resources to do, even a payoff of 300 Truesilver Ore will seem like an unworthy prize for an hour's hard work for 6 players.

On the other hand, we get to choose when to throw a kit down so there is that. I just feel that gushers found in dangerous places will not be used either.

The waves top out at 10 creatures right now, so they're usually not terrible to deal with, but there will definitely be exceptions. In particular, Gathering of Legends has the potential to spawn 10 of the toughest creatures from one race during a wave if the random numbers fall that way, though it will usually spawn a more balanced assortment. It would be pretty risky to put down a Harvesting Kit under those conditions unless you have a lot of players ready to go, and perhaps a smallholding nearby to resupply. If you use an upgraded T3 Harvesting Kit and kill the attackers pretty quickly, you might also be able to finish production up in 35-40 minutes and you'll deal with a lot less waves than you would using a +0 kit.

You also do get all the loot off those attackers, as well as achievements and possibly lowering some escalation strength, so the harvesting production comes in on top of all that. Still, depending on the attackers, that could be a pretty high-risk way to get those resources compared to gathering. The risks will not always be worth it.
Bob
Bringslite of Staalgard
Is it a correct assumption that monster waves will just spawn in the way that guards do when an outpost or holding is attacked?
Will each live(and close enough) NPC contribute points toward wrecking the…. "Gusher Shack" or is there a different plan?

The waves spawn somewhat similarly to the guards, though the entire wave appears at once. The attackers will spawn in from 35-50 meters away from the center of the Harvesting Site and then either attack nearby players or make their way to the site. While close to the site and outnumbering defenders, they automatically damage the harvester, very much like the capture game.
Bob
Nihimon
Bob, can you clarify what you mean by "unit"? The reason I ask is because my Dowser frequently pulls 4 or more Essence at a time. My understanding is that would be 4 "units", which would reduce the rating by 4.

Yup, that's what I mean by unit here.

Nihimon
It seems like the primary benefit is getting 100 cycles at the initial quality without having to run around, but it seems like a marginal improvement, especially for Essences, at the cost of having to do a lot of extra fighting.

There's a secondary benefit of lowering the hex ratings by only 100 while getting more than 100 unit in return, but yes, the primary advantage (particularly as a solo gatherer) is being able to get a higher amount of a specific resource during that time than you would have by gathering. Essences are admittedly probably one of the less valuable instances because those gathering nodes rarely provide much variety to begin with, but could still be worthwhile if you get a T3 Harvesting Node.

It's also important to note that this opens up a kind of gathering for more combat-oriented players, in that the gatherer who placed the kit doesn't even need to stick around. It also opens up the possibility of taking over a Harvesting Site through PvP, giving PvP players access to a form of gathering. Those clearly aren't direct benefits to the gatherer who placed the kits, but they're benefits to the game environment as a whole, assuming they're all balanced out properly.

Nihimon
I guess it feels like it's going to be a bit lackluster, that most Harvesting Nodes will go unharvested, and that the opportunity costs of using a Harvesting Kit (no resources of any other kind for the duration, everyone assisting in the fighting not being able to do anything else) will often outweigh the benefits. In short, it feels like it's just another means of getting slightly higher (maybe) value/time out of the hex, but at potentially much higher cost.

To a certain degree, they basically are meant to be just a way to get more of certain resources out of a hex faster using a different kind of effort (fighting creatures). That said, we do want to make sure that the payoff is compelling, particularly if you find a Harvesting Node for the highest tier you're able to gather, so I'm open to arguments if the payoff seems like it would rarely be compelling. On the other hand, if you're a Tier 3 gatherer and you find a tansy leaf Harvesting Node, then that's only really useful if you happen to really need tansy leaves, or if you can place the Harvesting Kit and turn it over to some T1 characters for whom that many units of tansy leaves would be a good return on their time. Alternatively, if the hex is infected, fighting the waves of attackers could also be a good way of lowering the escalation strength, and so the tansy leaves might just be a nice side-benefit. Outside of that, a T1 Harvesting Node isn't a great find for a T3 gatherer, and that's okay. Just keep gathering until you get a better one.
Bob
I made a slight edit to the original post to clarify something Cole and I were discussing this morning. It turns out that each character can only know the location of 1 Harvesting Node per hex at a time, not 1 Harvesting Node globally. That means that if you're not interested in the Harvesting Node you just found, you can always go to another hex and try to find a more valuable one there.